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Ibn Kathir, Ibn Qudamah, Nawawi, Qurtubi, Shawkani, Bayhaqi, Ibn Hajr and others on TAWASSUL!!

This is a discussion on Ibn Kathir, Ibn Qudamah, Nawawi, Qurtubi, Shawkani, Bayhaqi, Ibn Hajr and others on TAWASSUL!! within the Beliefs and Fundamentals forums, part of the Main Topics category; Hafidh Ibn Hajar says about Malik Dar, "Malik bin Iyyad, the freed servant of Hadrat 'Umar, he was known as ...

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    Hafidh Ibn Hajar says about Malik Dar, "Malik bin Iyyad, the freed servant of Hadrat 'Umar, he was known as Malik Dar. He saw the Prophet (peace be upon him), He heard ahadith from Hadrat Abu Bakr...."

    Others said he was a Tab'i.

    http://www.minhajbooks.com/books/ind...ad=img&lang=en
    Although I don't agree with Tahirul Qadri in many issues, he did a good job researching the various narrations. For more detail you can check it out.

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    The Serial Repper Skillganon's Avatar
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    Wrong thread

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    Muslim you have no idea what you are talking about. The bedouin is unknown. Malik ad dar is not the problem here. The one who asked the Prophet(SAW) to make dua is not known. Even if he had seen Umar(RA) does not make him immaculate. We cannot take our deen from an unknown person.

    That bedouin is unknown. Prove it to me that he was a sahabi or tabi. Bring me a scholar who have said so. Tahir ul Qadri is a liar and i dont believe his words.

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    أودعكم بدمعات العيون Saiful Rahman Al Afghany's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sabaya View Post
    What does this have to do with making tawassul through the actions of another person?
    I'm not so much talking about tawassul through another person's actions in this thread akhee - I more about going to the Prophet's grave and taking him as a wasilah to Allaah. The majority (if not Ijma'a) allowed this - only a small minority differed. Shawkani's quote however is supported by other scholars. Wa Allaahu A'alam,

    Quote Originally Posted by suhail View Post
    There is one problem which you have not answered at all. How do we know that Prophet(SAW) can hear our dua's so that he can ask Allah for us?
    OK - we agree that if the Prophet were to hear us - nothing would prevent him from making dua' for us.

    So we continue:

    CAN the dead hear? The jamhur says YES - including Ibnul Qayyim and Ibn Taymiyah - although a small minority differed.

    Imaam Ibn Taymiyah (r) was asked:

    Question:

    هل الميت يسمع كلام زائره، ويري شخصه‏؟‏ وهل تعاد روحه إلى جسده في ذلك الوقت

    Answer:

    الحمد لله رب العالمين، نعم يسمع الميت ـ في الجملة ـ كما ثبت في الصحيحين عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال‏:‏ ‏(‏يسمع خفق نعالهم حين يولون عنه‏)‏‏.‏ وثبت عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه ترك قتلي بدر ثلاثا، ثم أتاهم فقال‏:‏ ‏(‏يا أبا جهل بن هشام، يا أمية بن خلف، يا عتبة بن ربيعة، يا شيبة بن ربيعة، هل وجدتم ما وعدكم ربكم حقًا‏؟‏ فإني وجدت ما وعدني ربي حقًا‏)‏‏.‏ فسمع عمر ـ رضي الله عنه ـ ذلك فقال‏:‏ يا رسول الله، كيف يسمعون، وأني يجيبون، وقد جيفوا‏؟‏‏!‏ فقال‏:‏ ‏(‏والذي نفسي بيده،ما أنت بأسمع لما أقول منهم، ولكنهم لا يقدرون أن يجيبوا‏)‏‏.‏ ثم أمر بهم فسحبوا في قليب بدر، وكذلك في الصحيحين عن عبد الله بن عمر‏:‏ أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وقف على قليب بدر فقال‏:‏ ‏(‏هل وجدتم ما وعدكم ربكم حقًا‏؟‏‏)‏ وقال‏:‏ ‏(‏إنهم يسمعون الآن ما أقول‏)‏‏.‏

    وقد ثبت عنه في الصحيحين من غير وجه أنه كان يأمر بالسلام على أهل القبور‏.‏ ويقول‏:‏ ‏(‏قولوا‏:‏ السلام عليكم أهل الديار من المؤمنين والمسلمين، وإنا إن شاء الله بكم لاحقـون، ويرحم الله المستقدمين منا ومنكم والمستأخرين، نسأل الله لنا ولكم العافية، اللهم لا تحرمنا أجـرهم، ولا تفتنا بعـدهم، واغفـر لنا ولهم‏)‏‏.‏ فهـذا خطاب لهم، وإنما يخاطب من يسمع‏.‏ وروي ابن عبد البر عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم / أنه قال‏:‏ ‏(‏ما من رجل يمر بقبر رجل كان يعرفه في الدنيا فيسلم عليه إلا رد الله عليه روحه حتى يرد عليه السـلام‏)‏‏.‏


    Then he concludes:

    فهذه النصوص وأمثالها تبين أن الميت يسمع في الجملة كلام الحي

    (Source: http://www.saaid.net/book/open.php?cat=86&book=800
    He said: "Fee al-Jumlah" - so generaly they DO hear! This is what the majority of scholars are upon.

    Shaykhul Islaam (r) was also asked:

    Question:

    هل يتكلم الميت في قبره أم لا ‏؟‏

    Answer:

    يتكلم، وقد يسمع ـ أيضاً ـ من كلمه، كما ثبت في الصحيح عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال‏:‏ ‏(‏إنهم يسمعون قرع نعالهم‏)‏‏.‏

    (Source: http://www.saaid.net/book/open.php?cat=86&book=800
    So if this is about the normal dead human beings - what about the anbiya'???!

    al-Imam Ibnul Qayyim (r) believed the same (Kitab ar-Ruh):

    فصل ويدل على هذا أيضا ما جرى عليه عمل الناس قديما وإلى الآن من تلقين الميت في قبره ولولا أنه يسمع ذلك وينتفع به لم يكن فيه فائدة وكان عبثا وقد سئل عنه الإمام أحمد رحمه الله فاستحسنه واحتج عليه بالعمل ويروى فيه حديث ضعيف ذكره الطبرانى في معجمه من حديث أبى أمامة قال قال رسول الله إذا مات أحدكم فسويتم عليه التراب فليقم أحدكم على رأس قبره ثم يقول يا فلان ابن فلانة فإنه يسمع ولايجيب ثم ليقل يا فلان ابن فلانة الثانية فإنه يستوي قاعدا ثم ليقل يا فلان ابن فلانة يقول أرشدنا رحمك الله ولكنكم لاتسمعون فيقول أذكر ما خرجت عليه من الدنيا شهادة أن لا إله إلا الله وان محمد رسول الله وأنك رضيت بالله ربا وبالإسلام دينا وبمحمد نبيا وبالقرآن إماما فان منكرا ونكيرا يتأخر كل واحد منهما ويقول انطلق بنا ما يقعدنا عند هذا وقد لقن حجته ويكون الله ورسوله حجيجه دونهما فقال رجل يا رسول الله فإن لم يعرف أمه قال ينسبه إلى امه حواء فهذا الحديث وإن لم يثبت فإتصال العمل به في سائر الأمصار والأعصار من غير انكار كاف في العمل به وما أجرى الله سبحانه العادة قط بأن أمه طبقت مشارق الأرض ومغاربها وهي أكمل الأمم عقولا وأوفرها معارف تطيق على مخاطبة من لا يسمع ولا يعقل وتستحسن ذلك لاينكره منها منكر بل سنه الأول للآخر ويقتدي فيه الآخر بالأول فلولا ان المخاطب يسمع لكان ذلك بمنزلة الخطاب للتراب والخشب والحجر والمعدوم وهذا وان استحسنه واحد فا لعلماء قاطبة على استقباحه واستهجانه وقد روى أبو داود في سننه بإسناد لا بأس به أن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم حضر جنازة رجل فلما دفن قال سلوا لأخيكم التثيب فإنه الآن يسأل فأخبر أنه يسأل حينئذ وإذا كان يسأل فإنه يسمع التلقين وقد صح عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم أن الميت يسمع قرع نعالهم إذا ولوا منصرفين

    "Another proof of this [the dead hearing the living] is also the practice of people (`amal al-nas) formerly and to the present time of instructing the dead in his grave (talqin al mayyit fi qabrihi). If the dead did not hear that and did not benefit by it there would be no advantage in it and it would be done in vain. Imam Ahmad was asked about it and he considered it good (istahsanahu) and adduced for it a proof from usage (ihtajja `alayhi bi al-`amal).There is also related on this subject a weak narration which al-Tabarani related in his Mu`jam from Abu Umama who said that the Messenger of Allah said, 'When one of your brothers dies and you have smoothed over the earth upon his grave, let one of you stand at the head of the grave and say, "O So and so Son of So and so" for he will hear, though he cannot reply - and then say, "O So and So, son of So and so," and he will say, "Direct me, Allah have mercy upon you mercy on you," though you will not hear it, but should say, "Remember the creed upon which you departed from this world, the testification that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His slave and messenger, and that you accepted Allah as your Lord, Islam as your religion, Muhammad as your prophet, and the Koran as your exemplar." For then the two angels Munkar and Nakir will take each other's hand and say, "Let us go, what is there to keep us beside someone who has been instructed how to make his plea?" A Man said, "O Messenger of Alllah, what if one does not know the name of his mother?" and he answered, 'Then one should mention his descent from his mother Eve, saying, "O so and so son of Eve" Although this hadith has not been established (lam yathbut), nevertheless the continuity of its practice in every country and time without objection is sufficient warrant for its performance. For Allah certainly never caused a custom (`ada) to persist so that a people who encompass the eastern and western parts of the earth, and who are the most perfect of peoples in intelligence, and the most comprehensive of them in sciences, should agree to address one who neither hears nor reasons, and approve of that, without some mistrustful one of that people disapproving it! But, the first established it for the last (sannahu al-awwalu li al-akhir), and the last imitates the first therein (wa yaqtadi fihi al-akhiru bi al-awwal). And were it not that the one who is addressed hears, this act would have the status of address to earth and wood and stone and the non-existent -- and this, even if one person might approve of it, the learned would unanimously abhor it and condemn it. Abu Dawud related in his Sunan with a chain to which there is no objection: The Prophet attended the funeral of a man, and when he was buried he said: "Ask confirmation for your brother, for he is now being questioned." So he gave information that he was being questioned at that time. And since he was being asked, then he could hear the dictation. And it is valid on the Prophet's authority that the dead one hears the beating of their sandals when they turn to leave".

    (Kitab ar-Ruh).
    I'll make a scan if I can find this book!

    al-Qurtubi (r) used the same logic to conclude that the dead DO hear us but they cannot answer back!

    And there are many more fatawa if anyone is interested!

    Yes - Bibi Aisha Sideeqa (r) believed that the dead cannot hear us. But this is a minority opinion, the jamhur opposed this, as Ibn Hajr explained.

    Ibn Hajr says:

    قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما أنتم بأسمع لما أقول منهم أورده هنا مختصرا وسيأتي مطولا في المغازي وصالح المذكور في الإسناد هو بن كيسان ثالثها حديث عائشة قالت إنما قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم إنهم ليعلمون الآن ما أن كنت أقول لهم حق وهذا مصير من عائشة إلى رد رواية بن عمر المذكورة وقد خالفها الجمهور في ذلك وقبلوا حديث بن عمر لموافقة من رواه غيره عليه وأما استدلالها بقوله تعالى انك لا تسمع الموتى فقالوا معناها لا تسمعهم سماعا ينفعهم أو لا تسمعهم الا أن يشاء الله وقال السهيلي عائشة لم تحضر قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فغيرها ممن حضر أحفظ للفظ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وقد قالوا له يا رسول الله اتخاطب قوما قد جيفوا فقال ما أنتم بأسمع لما أقول منهم قال وإذا جاز أن يكونوا في تلك الحال عالمين جاز أن يكونوا سامعين إما بآذان رءوسهم كما هو قول الجمهور أو باذان الروح على رأي من يوجه السؤال إلى الروح من غير رجوع إلى الجسد
    AND:

    وقد ثبتت الأحاديث بما ذهب إليه الجمهور كقوله أنه ليسمع خفق نعالهم وقوله تختلف اضلاعه لضمة القبر وقوله يسمع صوته إذا ضربه بالمطراق وقوله يضرب بين أذنيه وقوله فيقعدانه وكل ذلك من صفات الأجساد


    So the opinion that the dead cannot hear DOES contradicts what the jamhur says! Who says that? No ill feelings towards me --> Imam Asqalani is the man

    And also, the ahaadith in Bukhari & Muslim about greeting the Ashaab al-Qubuur. If they can't hear us - what's the point of greeting?!

    Ibn Kathir mentions this in his Tafsir (Surah 30, verse 52):

    وهذا باب فيه آثار كثيرة عن الصحابة. وكان بعض الأنصار من أقارب عبد الله بن رواحة يقول: اللهم إني أعوذ بك من عمل أخزى به عند عبد الله بن رواحة، كان يقول ذلك بعد أن استشهد عبد الله.
    وقد شرع السلام على الموتى، والسلام على مَنْ لم يشعر ولا يعلم بالمسلم محال، وقد علم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أمته إذا رأوا القبور أن يقولوا: "سلام عليكم أهل الديار من المؤمنين ، وإنا إن شاء الله بكم لاحقون ، يرحم الله المستقدمين منا ومنكم والمستأخرين، نسأل الله لنا ولكم العافية"، فهذا السلام والخطاب والنداء لموجود يسمع ويخاطب ويعقل ويرد، وإن لم يسمع المسلم الرد ، والله أعلم
    (Source: http://www.qurancomplex.org/Quran/ta...&nAya=52#30_52


    It's not my tahreef - the english translators did not translate all these important bits!!

    ???

    There is much more, but this is sufficient proof Insha'Allaah. So the jamhur does say that the dead can hear us. And this is about the normal dead people - so what about the shuhada' who are "Ahyaun 'inda Rabbihim"? And th anbya' who are "Ahya'un fi Quburihim?"

    Is there any doubt left that the PROPHET can hear us???

    Wa Allaahu A'alam,

    Quote Originally Posted by suhail View Post
    Nobody knew who the Bedouin was. His name is not narrated so how can u say that he was a sahabi or tab'i. Just being from that era does not makes one sahabi or tabii. Even if he was during Sayyidna Umar's time how do you know who he was. Sorry i do not take my deen from an unknown person.
    Ibn Hajr Asqalani in his "Fath al-Bari" says about that narration:


    وَقَدْ رَوَى سَيْف فِي الْفُتُوح أَنَّ الَّذِي رَأَى الْمَنَام الْمَذْكُور هُوَ بِلَال بْن الْحَارِث الْمُزَنِيُّ أَحَد الصَّحَابَة , وَظَهَرَ بِهَذَا كُلّه مُنَاسَبَة التَّرْجَمَة لِأَصْلِ هَذِهِ الْقِصَّة أَيْضًا وَاَللَّه الْمُوَفِّق . ‏
    (Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...Doc=0&Rec=1610


    So the person was Bilal (r) - a Sahabi.

    I think we should speak with no kibr and talk with proper Islamic 'adab - before we ruin our dunya and akhirah.

    And Ibn Hajr authenticated this narration, by saying:

    وَرَوَى اِبْن أَبِي شَيْبَة بِإِسْنَادٍ صَحِيح

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Jafar View Post
    Can I go to Jesus' grave and ask of him to? Where does it stop? La illaha ill Allah
    Jesus (s) has no grave
    Last edited by Saiful Rahman Al Afghany; 9th April 2009 at 01:42 AM.

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    Can I go to Jesus' grave and ask of him to? Where does it stop?
    Exactly. Many of the people who believe in "tawassul" go beyond what you have mentioned bro. Saif. Is the tawassul of the Salaf like the tawassul of the Khalaf? Can all the acts which occur at graves in the Muslim world be categorised as "tawassul"? Is istighaatha of the Prophet(SAWS) permissible and is the Prophet's(SAWS) grave a place for "qadaa' al-hawa'ij" as I read one Raafidhi shaykh write?

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    I think it's established that the narration is Sahih, and the implication of that is that in the least, the bedioun was a Tabi'i. Hopefully no one denies that.
    Now we hear a lot 'did the salaf do it', here is proof that a Salaf, tabi'i, did do it. Now it's a matter of being stubborn.
    This isn't the only proof used for doing what the bedioun did.

    Don't call Tahirul Qadri a liar, his research is sound and from relied scholars (though he has serious issues).

    It doesn't matter who the bedioun was, there are narrations in Muwatta where the name of one of narrators is missing but that doesn't detract anything (though the narrations are found in other books with full isnad).

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    Once the flood gates are opened the darkness just pours out...


    A Muslim would NEVER think of making dua to anyone except Allah.

    I don't care how much Arabic you know or how many books you read, shirk is just not right.

    Quote all you want I don't care how you twist the words...my fitrah, my soul, can never except saying "Oh Rasulallah!..." in place of "O Allah..!" No matter that I don't know Arabic. No matter how ignorant I am or how sinful, as a Muslim I KNOW that I need no intermediaries between me and Allah.

    La illaha ill Allah



    "...Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of existence. He has sent down upon you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution. Indeed, from Allah nothing is hidden in the earth nor in the heaven. It is He who forms you in the wombs however He wills. There is no deity except Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muúammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. [Who say], "Our Lord, let not our hearts deviate after You have guided us and grant us from Yourself mercy. Indeed, You are the Bestower. Our Lord, surely You will gather the people for a Day about which there is no doubt. Indeed, Allah does not fail in His promise." Indeed, those who disbelieve - never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all. And it is they who are fuel for the Fire. [Theirs is] like the custom of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied Our signs, so Allah seized them for their sins. And Allah is severe in penalty. Say to those who disbelieve, "You will be overcome and gathered together to Hell, and wretched is the resting place."
    Last edited by Ibn Jafar; 9th April 2009 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiful Rahman Al Afghany View Post


    Jesus (s) has no grave
    How about the grave of Mariam?

    Your sick

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    Saiful Rahman most of what you have said have been discussed many a times. The narrations of tawassul are all weak and those that are authentic have no proof in them of the Bida'h and shirk the innovators promote. There is no narration authentic that proves dead can hear. What you quote from tafsirs is not proof that the scholars who quoted it believed that they are authentic or they took them as you take them! Scholars narrate all what has been narrated regarding verse whether it is authentic or not and this practice is also regarding hadith unless indicated otherwise!

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-omari View Post
    Exactly. Many of the people who believe in "tawassul" go beyond what you have mentioned bro. Saif. Is the tawassul of the Salaf like the tawassul of the Khalaf? Can all the acts which occur at graves in the Muslim world be categorised as "tawassul"? Is istighaatha of the Prophet(SAWS) permissible and is the Prophet's(SAWS) grave a place for "qadaa' al-hawa'ij" as I read one Raafidhi shaykh write?
    Saheeh - those who don't know tawassul should not even indulge in it. But to say: "This is a door to shirk so stop it" - then this kalaam is ghayr saheeh. Every act of worship can be a door to shirk. For example dua' can be a door to shirk because you can make dua' to false gods. Salah can be a door to shirk because you can make sujuud to an idol. So can we say: "Salah and dua' are doors to shirk so no more Salah & Dua'?" No ofcourse not! You educate the people!

    People should learn tawheed from our muwahid 'ulama and they should stay within the boundaries of milat ibrahim.

    al-Istighatha from the dead is shirk al-akbar, as I said so many times.

    I can proof by the same scholars I mentioned in this thread that seeking help from the dead is shirk al-akbar.

    Wa Allaahu A'alam,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Jafar View Post
    Once the flood gates are opened the darkness just pours out...

    A Muslim would NEVER think of making dua to anyone except Allah.

    I don't care how much Arabic you know or how many books you read, shirk is just not right.

    Quote all you want I don't care how you twist the words...my fitrah, my soul, can never except saying "Oh Rasulallah!..." in place of "O Allah..!" No matter that I don't know Arabic. No matter how ignorant I am or how sinful, as a Muslim I KNOW that I need no intermediaries between me and Allah.

    La illaha ill Allah
    La hawla wa laa quwatta illa billaah! Shirk is the greatest sin in the sight of Allaah my noble brother. The blood and wealth of a murtad becomes halal. He is to be killed and not burried in the muslim graveyard. Do you really think I would ask you to commit shirk billah?!

    I say again and again: I DO NOT ask anyone to follow me. I am just a muqallid like you. We are not even qualified to explain these issues. Only qualified scholars discuss these issues. We follow them in haqq. In fact, I think I'll even quit this discussion, because this is a big issue and I don't want to make mistakes in what I say!

    But think about it: Do you really think that all those scholars I mentioned were promoting shirk?!

    Nobody is asking you to ask the Prophet for help. Tawassul is something else. The prophet cannot help you. Allaah hears everything and he can helps you anywhere/anytime. But I don't blame you brother, because you've only heard one side of the story. That's why all this sounds strange to you. I understand why you say that.

    Lakin nobody is forcing you to do tawassul. If you want to stay on the safe side and not do it - go for it.

    Wa Allaahu A'alam,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Jafar View Post
    How about the grave of Mariam?

    Your sick
    I'm sick? I will not forget this from you akhee and I don't think your question is sincere, but I have forgiven you anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adeel View Post
    Saiful Rahman most of what you have said have been discussed many a times. The narrations of tawassul are all weak and those that are authentic have no proof in them of the Bida'h and shirk the innovators promote. There is no narration authentic that proves dead can hear. What you quote from tafsirs is not proof that the scholars who quoted it believed that they are authentic or they took them as you take them! Scholars narrate all what has been narrated regarding verse whether it is authentic or not and this practice is also regarding hadith unless indicated otherwise!
    Adeel - the jamhur says that the dead can hear as Ibn Hajr explained. Aisha and Qataadah believed that the dead cannot hear, but they were opposed by the jamhur. Salafis hold this opinion today, but even Ibn Taymiyah said that we cannot follow this opinion of Aisha (r) because the hearing of the dead is proven in Qur'an wa Sunnah.

    In hadith books, yes, scholars narrate even weak ahaadith, but how about scholars explaining ayaat of the Qur'an with ahaadith that promote shirk? It doesn't sound right - does it? If those narrations promoted kufr and shirk - they would not have mentioned it - unless they were jahil or we suddenly found a new shirk?

    And the narrations I mention are authentic, maybe not according to the criterias of Imam al-Albany (r) but others like al-Haafidh Ibn Kathir and Ibn Hajr Asqalani (r).

    Wa Allaahu A'alam,

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