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Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

This is a discussion on Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim within the Islamic Theology and Ideology forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; As Salam Elekum wr wb, A Jahmi asked to show this Hadith from Musnad Ahmed. Ibn Qayyim attribute a lie ...

  1. #1
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    Default Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    As Salam Elekum wr wb,

    A Jahmi asked to show this Hadith from Musnad Ahmed.

    Ibn Qayyim attribute a lie to Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal that Istawa refers to "JALOOS (SITTING)"

    وفي مسند الإمام أحمد من حديث ابن عباس رضي اللّه عنهما قصة الشفاعة الحديث بطوله مرفوعاً، وفيه " فآتي ربي عز وجل فأجده على كرسيه أو سريره جالساً".

    Note@جالساً which means "SITTING" I challenge whole Wahabism to find me this wording in the hadith of Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal!
    [As-Sawaaiq 4/1303]
    Ibn Uthmayeen:

    أما تفسيره بالجلوس فقد نقل ابن القيم في الصواعق 4/1303 عن خارجة بن مصعب في قوله تعالىالرحمن على العرش استوى((1) قوله: "وهل يكون الاستواء إلا الجلوس". ا.هـ. وقد ورد ذكر الجلوس في حديث أخرجه الإمام أحمد عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما مرفوعاً. والله أعلم
    .

    rough translation:

    with respect to the sitting, Ibn al-Qayyim has reported in As-Sawaaiq 1303/4 from Kharijah bin Mus'ab with respect to the

    saying of Allah the Exalted :The ayah: Ar-Rahmanu Alal Arshi Istawa, "How can the ascension be anything other than sitting?"

    and the mention of sitting has been reported in the Hadeeth from Imam Ahmad from Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them

    both, in a Marfu' fashion. And Allah Knows best
    He this copied from Faqir's thread in Sf by name of Attributes of Salafi God.
    Last edited by ubaid88; 30th May 2011 at 03:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    This Hadith was narrated by Imam Ahmad according to several sources, namely adh-Dhahabi, al-Bazzar, his son Abd Allah, Ibn Abi Ya'alaa, Ibn Abi Hatim, and others.

    It does not appear in the Musnad of Imam Ahmad.

    Ibn Uthaymin did not lie since he never mentioned it as being from Musnad Ahmad.

    I have not seen the Athar attributed to Ibn Abbas from Imam Ahmad, so I cannot comment on it.

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    This is from the multaqa ahl al hadeeth, shortened:

    تفصيل القول في جلوس الرب عز وجل:
    ذكر الإمام عبد الله بن الإمام أحمد في كتاب السنة (الذي حققه وقرأ الشيخ القحطاني) تحت عنوان "سئل عما روي في الكرسي وجلوس الرب عز وجل عليه" حديث عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه: )) إذا جلس تبارك وتعالى على الكرسي سمع له أطيط كأطيط الرحل الجديد((.
    رواه من طريق الإمام أحمد عن عبد الرحمن عن سفيان عن أبي إسحاق عن عبد الله بن خليفة عن عمر موقوفاً( ) .
    ورواه عبد الله أيضاً عن الإمام أحمد قال: نا وكيع بحديث إسرائيل عن أبي إسحاق عن عبد الله بن خليفة عن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه قال: ))إذا جلس الرب عز وجل على الكرسي(( فاقشعرَّ رجل، سماه أبي، عند وكيع، فغضب وكيع وقال: ))أدركنا الأعمش وسفيان يحدثون بهذه الأحاديث لا ينكرونها((( ).

    Trans: Abdullah the son of Ahmad mentions in Kitab al Sunnah under Chapter "what is narrated regarding His kursi and Juloos" and then quotes the hadith from Umar b Khattab about the sound when Allah azza wa jall sits on the throne.

    The narration of Ibn Qayyim by way of Ibn Abbas is also mentioned in al-Azmah although there are criticisms of all these narrations individually, the basic principle would be as Ibn Taymiyah says

    وإذا كان قعود الميت في قبره ليس هو مثل قعود البدن، فما جاءت به الآثار عن النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- من لفظ "القعود" و "الجلوس" في حق الله تعالى، كحديث جعفر بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، وحديث عمر رضي الله عنه وغيرهما، أولى أن لا يماثل صفات أجسام العباد

    If the sitting of the dead in their graves is not like the sitting of the living bodies then the narratiosn which come from the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be on him which mention qu'ood and juloos for Allah such as the one of Ja'far b abi talib and Umar and others these deserve even more not to be equated with the sitting of the bodies of the creation.

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    Quote Originally Posted by artistic muslim View Post
    the basic principle would be as Ibn Taymiyah says

    وإذا كان قعود الميت في قبره ليس هو مثل قعود البدن، فما جاءت به الآثار عن النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- من لفظ "القعود" و "الجلوس" في حق الله تعالى، كحديث جعفر بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، وحديث عمر رضي الله عنه وغيرهما، أولى أن لا يماثل صفات أجسام العباد

    If the sitting of the dead in their graves is not like the sitting of the living bodies then the narratiosn which come from the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be on him which mention qu'ood and juloos for Allah such as the one of Ja'far b abi talib and Umar and others these deserve even more not to be equated with the sitting of the bodies of the creation.
    THis sums it up, I don't really understand what's so hard to understand, his sitting ta'ala is not like ours plain and simple, alhamdulilah

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    Musafir artistic muslim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    THis sums it up, I don't really understand what's so hard to understand, his sitting ta'ala is not like ours plain and simple, alhamdulilah
    Unfortunately the Jahmis have as much to do with plain and simple understanding as the wolf did with the disappearance of Yusuf, alaihi'l salam.

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    Quote Originally Posted by ubaid88 View Post
    As Salam Elekum wr wb,
    My apologies, I didn't see this before-

    Wa Alayk as-Salaam.

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    There's nothing authentic that speaks of Allaah sitting

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    Default Re: Jahmi allegation on Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Qayyim

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif ul Haq View Post
    There's nothing authentic that speaks of Allaah sitting
    'Nothing' but the Arabic language itself and the opinions of the Salaf as-Salih. Most of us already know that's 'nothing' in your esteem...

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