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Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

This is a discussion on Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik? within the Islamic Theology and Ideology forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; assalamu 'alaykum, "A man entered Paradise because of a fly, and a man entered Hell-fire because of a fly." They ...

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    Default Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    assalamu 'alaykum,

    "A man entered Paradise because of a fly, and a man entered Hell-fire because of a fly." They
    (the Companions) asked, "How was that possible O Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Two men
    passed by the people who had an idol by which they would not allow anyone to pass without
    making sacrifice to it. They ordered one man to make a sacrifice. He said, 'I have nothing to
    present as an offering.' The people told him, 'Sacrifice something, even if it be a fly.' So he
    presented a fly (to their idol). They opened the way for him, and thus he entered the Hell-fire.
    They said to the other man, 'Sacrifice something.' He said, 'I will never sacrifice anything to any
    other than Allah, Most Majestic and Glorious.' So they struck his throat and killed him; and he,
    therefore, entered Paradise." (Ahmad)
    I read that he's a muslim.
    Can someone explain why please? (Not with your own logic but with proofs)
    لاإله إلا الله

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    Salaamu Alaykum

    The proof is the hadeeth itself. If the man was a mushrik before he sacrificed the fly, then he would have entered hellfire for being a mushrik, not for the act itself, though the act would have added to his shirk.

    Also do not seperate 'logic' (rational thinking, common sense etc.) from proofs. You need ration to analyse proofs. I don't think you were making a seperation, its just general advice in case someone reads what you wrote and misunderstands your intention. It is enough to say, please provide evidence.
    Last edited by YSN; 19th January 2012 at 10:26 AM.
    Ibn al-Qayyim :-

    "Nothing brings more disgrace to a person than him being heedless of Islamic virtues, of beneficial knowledge and righteous deeds. Whoever is such, then he is from the barbaric hooligans who pullute the waters and raise the prices.

    If he lives, he lives without honour and if he dies, he dies without being missed. The absence (of such a person) brings comfort to the lands and to the worshippers. The skies do not weep for them and the ghurabaa' (strangers) do not miss them"

    [Miftah Dar al-Sa'ada, 1/134]

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    Umm Why Umm Yassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I mean is he ''NOW'' a muslim or not. So after the sacrifice he made... was he trown into hellfire forever (mushrik) or will he get out some day (muslim).

    A muslim who is forced to sacrifice in the name of a false god... will he become mushrik?

    I hope this is clearer.
    لاإله إلا الله

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    he was not forced, if that was true he would not have gone to hell. he did shirk even though maybe he did not believe in his heart but he did it to gain something worldly.

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    Afwan but I just want to know what 'ulama said about this .. barakAllahu feekum.
    لاإله إلا الله

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    Bismillah ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Umm Yassin View Post
    A muslim who is forced to sacrifice in the name of a false god... will he become mushrik?
    No

    Ofcourse we are speaking about the case where a real threat and Ikraah exist. Scholars have spoken about what classes as being forced and what doesn't. So if a person is compelled to do an act or say a word of Kufr then Allah has excused him, and the verse is clear in that.
    Quote Originally Posted by wahhabi dissident View Post
    he was not forced, if that was true he would not have gone to hell. he did shirk even though maybe he did not believe in his heart but he did it to gain something worldly.
    He does seem to have been forced akhee, as evidenced from his companion who refused to offer such a sacrifice being killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Umm Yassin View Post
    Afwan but I just want to know what 'ulama said about this .. barakAllahu feekum.
    You can refer to Shaykh al-Shinqitee -Rahimahu Allah-, who has some very nice words on this matter in his Tafseer "Adwaa' al-Bayaan" under Surat al-Kahf verse 20. In Sha Allah you will find his comments very beneficial

    And Allah knows best

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    BarakAllahu feek, but I don't speak Arabic.
    Is it possible for you to summarize what the sheikh ra said on this in a few lines please?
    لاإله إلا الله

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    Wa Iyaakee ... Here is a haste translation

    Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti -Rahimahu Allah- (d. 1393H) said in 'Adwaa al-Bayaan' 3/250:

    "His saying [Exalted is He]: {Indeed, if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion, and never would you succeed, then - ever}

    [Allah] the Almighty mentioned in this noble verse about the people of the Cave, that they said of their people who are Kuffar and whom they have fled from with their religion, that if they gain power over them, and learn and know of their place, they will surely stone them (throw them with stones), which is from the harshest types of killing.

    It was also said [that what is meant is that]: they will throw them with insults and slander, or return them back to their religion, meaning return them back to the religion of disbelief.

    That which is mentioned here is the actions of the Kuffar with the Muslims from inflicting upon them harm or make them return back to disbelief. It is also mentioned in other locations that this is the action of the Kuffar with the Messengers and those who followed them.


    ... he mentions some of the verses about this ...

    An [important] point:

    Some of the scholars took from this verse that the excuse for Kufr under compulsion is one of the unique characteristics of this nation, since His saying [Glorified is He]: about the people of the that {if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion} [al-Kahf 18:20] which is apparent in that they would have been coerced into that and that is a matter they did not find acceptable, and with this He said about them: {never would you succeed, then - ever} signifying that coercion is not an acceptable excuse for them.

    This meaning is supported by the tradition of Tariq ibn Shihab about the one who entered the Fire because of a Fly, which he offered as a sacrifice while being compelled to doing so out of fear of being murdered. Because his companion, who declined to offer a sacrifice even if only a fly was killed by them.


    This is also supported by the understanding of the words of the Messenger when he said: "Allaah has forgiven for me, for my Ummah, their unintentional acts, what they did out of forgetfulness, and that which they were coerced into doing". So his saying that Allah has granted the Messenger forgiveness for his Ummah, an indication that this was not forgiven to the previous nations. Now this tradition even though was weakened by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Abi Hatim has been received by scholars, past and present, with acceptance, and is supported with authentic texts from the Great Quran and Authentic Sunnah.

    We have clarified this issue in [more detail] in our book "Daf' Iyhaam al-Idtiraab 'An Ayaat al-Kitaab" under Surat al-Kahr, when speaking on this verse: {...} [al-Kahf 18/20], which is why we summarized it here.

    As for this nation, Allah has clearly said that he has excused them when under compulsion when He said: {Except for he who was coerced while his heart is at rest with Faith} [al-Nahl 16/106]. And Knowledge is with Allah"

    قوله تعالى: {إِنَّهُمْ إِنْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ أَوْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي مِلَّتِهِمْ وَلَنْ تُفْلِحُوا إِذاً أَبَداً}.
    ذكر جل وعلا في هذه الآية الكريمة عن أصحاب الكهف ـ أنهم قالوا إن قومهم الكفار الذين فروا منهم بدينهم إن يظهروا عليهم، أي يطلعوا عليهم ويعرفوا مكانهم، يرجموهم بالحجارة، وذلك من أشنع أنواع القتل. وقيل: يرجموهم بالشتم والقذف، أو يعيدوهم في ملتهم، أي يردوهم إلى ملة الكفر:
    وهذا الذي ذكره هنا من فعل الكفار مع المسلمين من الأذى أو الرد إلى الكفر، ذكر
    في مواضع أخر أنه هو فعل الكفار مع الرسل وأتباعهم. كقوله: جل وعلا: {وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِرُسُلِهِمْ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكُمْ مِنْ أَرْضِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا} [14/13]، وقوله تعالى :{قَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ اسْتَكْبَرُوا مِنْ قَوْمِهِ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكَ يَا شُعَيْبُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَكَ مِنْ قَرْيَتِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا قَالَ أَوَلَوْ كُنَّا كَارِهِينَ قَدِ افْتَرَيْنَا عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِباً إِنْ عُدْنَا فِي مِلَّتِكُمْ بَعْدَ إِذْ نَجَّانَا اللَّهُ مِنْهَا وَمَا يَكُونُ لَنَا أَنْ نَعُودَ فِيهَا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ...} الآية [7/88-89]، وقوله تعالى: {وَلا يَزَالُونَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ حَتَّى يَرُدُّوكُمْ عَنْ دِينِكُمْ إِنِ اسْتَطَاعُوا} [2/217] إلى غير ذلك من الآيات.
    مسألة
    أخذ بعض العلماء من هذه الآية الكريمة أن العذر بالإكراه من خصائص هذه الأمة، لأن قوله: عن أصحاب الكهف {إِن يَظْهَرُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ أَوْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِى مِلَّتِهِمْ} [18/20] ظاهر في إكراههم على ذلك وعدم طواعيتهم، ومع هذا قال عنهم: {وَلَن تُفْلِحُوا إِذًا أَبَدًا} فدل ذلك على أن ذلك الإكراه ليس بعذر. ويشهد لهذا المعنى حديث طارق بن شهاب في الذي دخل النار في ذباب قربه مع الإكراه بالخوف من القتل. لأن صاحبه الذي امتنع أن يقرب ولو ذباباً قتلوه.
    ويشهد له أيضاً دليل الخطاب، أي مفهوم المخالفة في قوله: صلى الله عليه وسلم: "إن الله تجاوز لي عن أمتي الخطأ والنسيان وما استكرهوا عليه" فإنه يفهم من قوله: "تجاوز لي عن أمتي" أن غير أمته من الأمم لم يتجاوز لهم عن ذلك. وهذا الحديث وإن أعله الإمام أحمد وابن أبي حاتم فقد تلقاه العلماء قديماً وحديثاً بالقبول، وله شواهد ثابتة في القرآن العظيم والسنة الصحيحة. وقد أوضحنا هذه المسألة في كتابنا "دفع إيهام الاضطراب عن آيات الكتاب" في سورة الكهف، في الكلام على قوله: {إِنَّهُمْ إِن يَظْهَرُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ...} الآية [18/20]. ولذلك اختصرناها هنا. أما هذه الأمة فقد صرح الله تعالى بعذرهم بالإكراه في قوله: {إِلَّا مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالْأِيمَانِ} [16/106]. والعلم عند الله تعالى.


    And Allah knows best
    Last edited by Ibn Abbas Al-Misri; 20th January 2012 at 08:35 AM.
    ...

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    Here is something I found ...
    Shaykh Abdulrazq b. Abdul Muhsin Al-‘Abaad said, when explaining this tradition:

    (They said to one of them: present an offering (make a sacrifice). He said: ‘I have nothing to present as an offering.’)

    Here there is a possibility that this first man was ready to present an offering, but the only thing stopping him was that he has nothing to offer, and it is also possible that he is compelled and fears that he might be killed.

    He said: (I have nothing to present as an offering) so both what we stated are possible. Attention should be paid to that, and we will clarify it later. Him saying: (I have nothing to present as an offering) might be an indication that he was ready [and had no problem in making an offering] … and might be that he did not want that matter, but out of fear of being killed he agreed to that.
    […]

    They said to the other, ‘Sacrifice something’. Now look at the strength of the Tawheed of those who adhere to it. He said: (I was not to sacrifice anything other than to Allah, Most Majestic and Glorious) I do not give offerings or sacrifices except to Allah, even if my neck is to be cut I would never do that … and that is because of the strength of his Tawheed and Iman.

    So they cut his neck, and he was admitted to Paradise. He died for the sake of Allah … He was killed for the sake of Allah because he abstained from Shirk, so they killed him.

    The first man who entered Hell, as I told you: is either a man who is ready and responsive [to offer the sacrifice they asked of him], but does not have anything to offer. If that is the case then his matter is clear [of why he entered Hell].

    The second case is that he was compelled and forced to do such an action … so if he was compelled and reluctant, how can it be said that he entered Hell because of a fly if he did what he did because he was forced?!

    There is no problem or confusion in that matter, as the people of knowledge clarified that being excused and pardoned for actions one is forced to do is something that came in the Sharee’ah of Muhammad [peace be upon him]. Allah raised the burdens and shackles that were upon the people. This is indicated by the tradition: (Allah has forgiven for my ummah its unintentional mistakes, forgetfulness and what they are forced to do) [notice his saying]: (for my ummah).

    It is also clear from the Quran when Allah [the Exalted] said [when speaking of the People of the Cave]: {Indeed, if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion. And never would you succeed, then - ever} [Al-Kahf 18:20]. Notice how they would stone them to return them to their religion, so had they obeyed them out of the fear of being stoned, He said: {never would you succeed, then - ever}

    In this matter there are some very beautiful words in “Adwaa Al-Bayan” which I would like to direct my brothers, the students [of knowledge], to when he spoke of this verse.

    He examined this matter, and quoted that tradition [of the fly] which we stated and pointed out there is no problem about him being forced, since this was the sharee’ah of those before us and they were not excused in this matter, and from the Mercy of Allah upon this Ummah that he pardoned them in this matter, and that if one is compelled he would be excused, as Allah said: {except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith} [Al-Nahl 16:106]. So if the heart is at ease with faith, and did not become secure in Kufr, and he did what he did out of fear of being killed, not willing to do kufr, then he is excused as indicated by the verse.

    Now, if he was compelled and not excused then is it appropriate to bring this tradition [of the fly] in this chapter [as the author did]?

    Yes it is appropriate, since the author used it to show that it is forbidden to offer sacrifices to other than Allah, and the tradition he brought forth is clear in how forbidden it is to offer sacrifices to other than Allah and that it can cause one to enter Hell, and is one of the reasons of entering Hell.

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    Default Re: Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

    ^ JZK akhi.

    Sh ibn Uthaymeen said that some scholars have used this hadith to say that compulsion is not allowed in action but its allowed in speech.

    What i read in this issue can be summarized into the following: The hai

    1. Compulsion was not allowed for the previous nations
    2. The guy was already willing to slaughter for the false diety but he did not have anything with him.
    3. Compulsion is not allowed in action.
    4. This hadith is weak.
    إذا كنت لا تدري ولم تك كالذي ... يشاور من يدري فكيف إذا تدري
    جهلت فلم تدر بأنك جاهل ... وأنك لا تدري بأنك لا تدري


    مَنْ حَازَ العِلْمَ وذَاكَرَهُ -*- صَلُحَتْ دُنْياهُ وآخِرَتُهْ
    فأَدِمْ للعِلْمِ مُذَاكَرَةً
    -*- فحياةُ العِلْمِ مُذَاكَرتُهْ



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