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Some questions

This is a discussion on Some questions within the Beliefs and Fundamentals forums, part of the Main Topics category; Many times while going through the threads on the subject of Aqeeda,bro Abu Zubair makes reference to the Hanbali creed,is ...

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    Default Some questions

    Many times while going through the threads on the subject of Aqeeda,bro Abu Zubair makes reference to the Hanbali creed,is this Hanbali creed exclusive to hanbalis/salafis at present and in the past or do we have adherants of the other madhahib also adhereing to the "hanbali aqeeda"?Could i have info about non hanbali/salafi ulema of the present who have the same aqeeda as the salafis.

    Could i have some references to the writings of non hanbali ulema who wrote in support of and in defence of the "Hanbali aqeeda"and against the attacks of the asharis.

    Are their different types of asharis?some being more extreme than others would all asharis be excluded from the ahlus sunnah?what about maturidis are their different views amongst them and would all of them be considered to be outside of the ahlus sunnah?

    I have heard a well known Hanafi alim who accepts ashari and maturidi aqeeda, clearley state that we have to affirm ALL the sifat of Allah as they have been narrated in the quran and ahadeeth(and he went on to describe some of the sifat (ie Allah's hand,his speech,his istawa,ect)Without explaining away or likening or comparing to the creation without asking how or distorting in any way,now this to me seems exactly like what the salafis/hanbalis say,so why the big disagreement?

    JazakAllah khair
    And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: This is lawful and this is forbidden, so as to invent lies against Allaah. Verily, those who invent lies against Allaah will never prosper. [al-Nahl 16:116].

    Syed Qutb (ra) when asked to seek pardon from nasser said
    Verily the index finger that testifies to the oneness of Allah in prayer utterly rejects to write even one letter that endorses the rule of the tyrant

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    Many times while going through the threads on the subject of Aqeeda,bro Abu Zubair makes reference to the Hanbali creed,is this Hanbali creed exclusive to hanbalis/salafis at present and in the past or do we have adherants of the other madhahib also adhereing to the "hanbali aqeeda"?Could i have info about non hanbali/salafi ulema of the present who have the same aqeeda as the salafis.

    Could i have some references to the writings of non hanbali ulema who wrote in support of and in defence of the "Hanbali aqeeda"and against the attacks of the asharis.
    I wouldnt have much information about the present day scholars from the non-Hanbalis who were Salafis. It usually takes an elapse of a whole generation to determine who is who.

    But in this generation, we have some notable non-Hanbali Salafis, and to name a few:

    Sh Muhammad Amin al-Harari al-Shafii, the teacher in Dar al-Hadeeth al-Khayriyya, who was not only an Ashari, but from the Ahbash. He then became a Salafi.

    Sh Muhammad Ali Adam who, as I heard, was a Hanafi turned Salafi.

    Sh Muhammad Jamil Zaino, another teacher at Dar al-Hadeeth, who was a Hanafi Shadhili who turned a Salafi

    Sh Muhammad al-Amin al-Shanqiti, a Maliki Salafi

    Sh Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuda, from the closest students of al-Kawthari, is quite clear about his beliefs in his rebuttal of Sh al-Albani

    Of course, not to mention Sh al-Albani himself who was a Hanafi turned Salafi

    Sh Abdullah Azzam, it seems was a Shafii more than a Hanbali, but a Salafi in creed.

    These names are just from this century.

    From the previous centuries we have:

    Muhammad Bashir al-Sahsawani an Indian scholar (although I am not sure about his Madhab orientation)

    The entire Alusi Hanafi family in Baghdad, and in particular:
    a) Khayr al-Din al-Alusi who refuted Ibn Hajar al-Haytami in his work: Jala al-Aynayn
    b) Mahmud Shukri al-Alusi who roasted al-Nabahani the Sufi in his work Ghayat al-Amani

    Sh Masud al-Nadawi, who was a hardcore Hanafi and a Salafi who wrote a book in defence of Sh Muhammad b. Abd al-Wahhab

    Al-Muallimi al-Yamani who wrote an excellent scholarly rebuttal of al-Kawthari, although I am not sure about his Madhab orientation

    Ali al-Suawydi (non-Hanbali, but not sure about his Madhab)

    Abd al-Rahman al-Jabarti, the Egyptian historian who was very sympathetic to the cause of Sh Muhammad b. Abd al-Wahhab. (non-Hanbali, but not sure about his Madhab)

    Al-Mulla Imran b. Ridhwan al-Shafii, a Persian scholar and a jurist who wrote in defence of the Dawah of Sh Muhammad. He would often refer to himself as a Wahhabi with much pride, and yet he was a Shafii!

    Al-Shawkani was another famous non-Hanbali and an admirer of Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim

    Shah Wali Allah al-Dehlawi was another Hanafi Mujaddid of India who admired Sheikh al-Islam

    Mulla Ali al-Qari al-Hanafi was impressed with Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim and referred to them as Awliya

    Al-Suyuti himself was affected by Ibn Taymiyya and thus his hostile attitude towards Kalam

    Ibn Nasir al-Din al-Dimashqi was a Shafii who defended Ibn Taymiyya against Ashari attacks, and thus wrote his famous work: al-Radd al-Wafir. Although it is said that he became a Hanbali

    During Ibn Taymiyyas century, there was just too many supporters from other schools, especially the Shafii school, such as al-Dhahabi, Ibn Kathir, al-Bazzar, Imad al-Din al-Wasiti, Ibn Abil-Izz al-Hanafi and others.

    Are their different types of asharis?some being more extreme than others would all asharis be excluded from the ahlus sunnah?what about maturidis are their different views amongst them and would all of them be considered to be outside of the ahlus sunnah?
    Ahl al-Sunnah is a relative term, and everyone is judged according to what he believes. Even the Mutazila are Ahl al-Sunnah in terms of their adherence to the Hanafi school, which is a Sunni school. But they are not Ahl al-Sunnah in Usul and Aqida. Likewise, most of the Asharis are Ahl al-Sunnah since they belong to the Shafii school, but in creed they are not.

    Secondly, one is not thrown outside the fold of Ahl al-Sunnah just by ascribing to Ashari or Maturidi, for these are just titles. It is possible, and it has happened in the past, that some scholars of Sunnah who affirm Allahs attributes called themselves Asharis, i.e. in the sense that they are the followers of al-Ashari in his last book al-Ibana, where he attributes himself to Imam Ahmad .b Hanbal. Such was the case with al-Khatib al-Baghdadi.

    Hence, it is not correct to make a blanket statement about the scholars and declare them as heretics, rather they are to be recognised and praised for the Sunnah they had, as they are to be corrected and sought forgiveness for their errors.

    I have heard a well known Hanafi alim who accepts ashari and maturidi aqeeda, clearley state that we have to affirm ALL the sifat of Allah as they have been narrated in the quran and ahadeeth(and he went on to describe some of the sifat (ie Allah's hand,his speech,his istawa,ect)Without explaining away or likening or comparing to the creation without asking how or distorting in any way,now this to me seems exactly like what the salafis/hanbalis say,so why the big disagreement?
    If this really is the case, and he does not mean by that negation of the literal meaning of the texts, then why wouldnt he be a Salafi? He can call himself whatever he likes, so long as His believes are that of the Prophet SallAllahu alaihi wa-sallam and his companions. Although, it is always better to ascribe himself to the Salaf, than to an individual who was a Mutakallim, wallahu alam

    wasalam
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    Albert Einstein

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    Related question: would you know why the great Arab philologist, Ibn Hisham, changed from Shafi'i to Hanbali in latter part of his life?

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    Al-Muallimi al-Yamani who wrote an excellent scholarly rebuttal of al-Kawthari, although I am not sure about his Madhab orientation ...
    salaam
    i heard from a student of knowledge that he was like as-Shawkani ,
    zaydi shi'i->sunni salafi

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    Default Brother Abu Zubair

    JazakAllah khayr, for answering my questions I really appreciate your help,may Allah subhana wa ta ala reward you with a place in al firdous ameeeen.

    wasalam
    And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: This is lawful and this is forbidden, so as to invent lies against Allaah. Verily, those who invent lies against Allaah will never prosper. [al-Nahl 16:116].

    Syed Qutb (ra) when asked to seek pardon from nasser said
    Verily the index finger that testifies to the oneness of Allah in prayer utterly rejects to write even one letter that endorses the rule of the tyrant

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    Assalaamulekum,

    But those scholars you had quoted, like abdullah azzam, shanqeeti etc, did they actually label themslves as "salafi" or is that their ascription?

    Also, you said that some called themselves asharee out of ascription to al ilbanah, so they are not asharee in teh cassical sense,right? So why did you say on another thread that barbaharee rejected al ilbanah? was it because imaam asharee himself affirmed Allah attributes but not the Qu'ran being the word of God literally because of the concept of change?

    WS

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    "Sh Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuda, from the closest students of al-Kawthari, is quite clear about his beliefs in his rebuttal of Sh al-Albani"

    ? !

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    As-Salaamu alaikum,

    But those scholars you had quoted, like abdullah azzam, shanqeeti etc, did they actually label themslves as "salafi" or is that their ascription?
    The scholars, due to their status and maturity, do not get into labels. What is important to them is the substance.

    So although one would not find these scholars insisting on calling oneself a salafi, but they would frequently refer to the way of the Salaf, as opposed to the way of the mutakallimun, Asharis or the Khalaf in most of their works. This is what makes them Salafis in essence, irrespective of the labels.

    Remember, Salafism is a movement which stretches itself back to the first Muslim generation, as opposed the Rationalist movement which received its initial blessings at the hands of the Mutazilites.

    Also, you said that some called themselves asharee out of ascription to al ilbanah, so they are not asharee in teh cassical sense,right? So why did you say on another thread that barbaharee rejected al ilbanah? was it because imaam asharee himself affirmed Allah attributes but not the Qu'ran being the word of God literally because of the concept of change?
    Al-Ashari was rejected by al-Barbahari because he tried to fuse the rationalist and the traditionalist approach together. The Salaf in bulk were extremely critical of Kalam, irrespective of whether it is use against or for the correct theology.

    Obviously, we know now how right al-Barbahari was by rejecting Kalam outright, for look at those today who ascribe themselves to al-Ashari, as there is hardly any difference left between them and the Mutazila.

    "Sh Abdul-Fattah Abu Ghuda, from the closest students of al-Kawthari, is quite clear about his beliefs in his rebuttal of Sh al-Albani"

    ? !
    Sh Abu Ghudda and Sh al-Albani were contemporaries and constantly at odds with each other.

    I believe that both were guilty of excesses with respect to each other.

    They were both good friends before they fell out.

    The feud, according to Abu Ghudda, started when he criticised Sh al-Albani for commenting on Ahadeeth of al-Bukhari and Muslim saying: Sahih. Sh Abu Ghuddas argument was that Sh al-Albani is inviting an average reader to doubt the two Sahihs, which the whole Umma has accepted as authentic. According to Abu Ghuddah, al-Albani became extremely angry at that, and this is when they fell apart. To add fuel to the fire, Abu Ghudda got al-Albanis edition of Sharh al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya banned from M. b. Suud uni.

    Al-Albani, on the other hand, in his forward of Sharh al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya extensively refuted Abu Ghudda, showing how scholars of the past mentioned Ahabdeeth from Bukhari and Muslim saying: Sahih! Moreover, he pointed out Abu Ghuddas own Sheikh, M. Zahid al-Kawthari who deemed a number of ahadeeth in Bukhari and Muslim to be weak that did not go down well with his Hanafi-Ashari fanaticism.

    It then spiralled into what it shouldnt have, with al-Albani accusing Abu Ghudda of being a Kawtharite, anti-Ibn Taymiyya, anti-Wahhabi, etc, who is only hiding his true beliefs to retain his job as a professor in Imam M. b. Suud uni, where he was invited to teach by Sh Muhammad b. Ibrahim.

    Abu Ghudda on the other hand wrote a small book in rebuttal of al-Albani, admitting that although he was a student and an admirer of al-Kawthari, he does not agree with him in many of his views. Not only that, but he also defended Ibn Taymiyas status by writing to one of the Hanafi scholars of India whilst he was in prison in Syria. He also published several works by Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim, often referring to the former as Sheikh al-Islam. He explicitly stated that he is on the beliefs of the Salaf by affirming all the Attributes without exception, without Tatil or Tashbih. He also explicitly stated that he regards Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn Abd al-Wahhab as the Aimma of Dawah, and that he has absolutely no qualms about division of Tawheed into 3 categories.

    The point is that in this rebuttal, he quite clearly established his Salafi inclinations without doubt.
    A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.

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    Asalamu alaykum

    Akhi abu zubair could you bring some exmaples from the sowrks of abu ghudda regarding his creed.

    Jazakallah

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    Abuz-Zubair: I bring my earlier question back to your attention:-
    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Muqatil
    Related question: would you know why the great Arab philologist, Ibn Hisham, changed from Shafi'i to Hanbali in latter part of his life?
    Would the rule of the scholar's laa mashaahata fee al-mus-talahaat "No dispute in jargon" be applicable with asharee_salafi's first question (06-17-2006)?

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