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The Maturidis believe: The Qur'an is created

This is a discussion on The Maturidis believe: The Qur'an is created within the Beliefs and Fundamentals forums, part of the Main Topics category; The Maturidites believe that the Qu'ran is created. Abu'l-Yusr al-Bazdawi (d.493), a major Maturidite, said in his book Usul al-Din: ...

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    Default The Maturidis believe: The Qur'an is created

    The Maturidites believe that the Qu'ran is created.


    Abu'l-Yusr al-Bazdawi (d.493), a major Maturidite, said in his book Usul al-Din:

    "The Speech of Allah, the Exalted, is present with Him, and likewise the speech of every speaker.

    And these Surahs which have an ending and beginning, countability and parts:

    It is not the Speech of Allah, the Exalted, literally.

    Rather, it is composed (manzm), Allah the Exalted composed it. And it signifies the Speech of Allah, the Exalted, like the manzm of Imru'l-Qays..

    The manzm of Imru'l-Qays signifies his speech, but it is not his speech. Likewise, the sermon of each preacher and the message of each messenger is manzm, signifying his speech but it is not his actual speech like this.."


    So the Nazm of the Qur'an, or composition, is not Allah's Speech. Just like the composition of Imru'l-Qays, the famous king-poet, is not his speech. The Qur'an simply signifies (dl is the Arabic expression through which the Maturidites strayed away) the eternal Speech of Allah, it is NOT His Speech.

    Likewise, the thing composed of Imru'l-Qays is NOT his speech, it simply signifies it. And the message of a messenger is NOT his speech, it simply signifies it. Well, how clear do you want to get it? Just take a look at what follows.

    In the K. al-Tamhid by Abu'l-Mu'in al-Nasafi (d.508), another major Maturidite, it is stated:

    "Allah, the Exalted, is a Speaker with Speech that is One, and it is an Attribute of Him in eternity, not from the kind of letters and sounds, and it is an Attribute devoid of silence and forgetfulness.

    And Allah is a Speaker by it: ordening, prohibiting and informing, and these expressions signify it.

    And the expressions are named Allah's Speech, the Exalted, meaning that they are expressions of His Eternal Speech, existing within His Essence. And it is what's intended in our saying: The Qur'an, the Speech of Allah the Exalted, is uncreated."


    So Allah is a Speaker with Speech which is One. So the expressions - which are multiple - can not be His Speech. Rather, they simply signify His Speech and are NOT His Speech at all. He even admits that when they say the Qur'an is uncreated they mean by it Allah's Speech, not the Nazm al-Qur'an.

    Again, from the 'Umdat al-I'tiqad of Hafidh al-Din al-Nasafi (d.701) it is stated:

    "The maker of the universe is a Speaker by Speech, One, Eternal, existing within His Essence.

    It is not from the kind of letters and sounds, undivided, devoid of silence, forgetfulness and absence of speech.

    And He orders, prohibits and informs by it.. And these expressions are created cause they are sounds which are accidents.

    And it is named Speech of Allah because of what it signifies.

    And if the Inner Speech is expressed in Arabic it is a Qur'an, and if it is expressed in Hebrew it is a Thaurat, and if it is expressed in Syrian it is a Injil.

    So the expressions differ, but not the Speech. Just like we call Allah by different expressions, while His Essence is One."


    How explicit do you want to get it? Allah's Speech is One and existing within His Essence. It is not of letters and sound, as the Qur'an is. Indeed, sounds are nothing but accidents and therefore Allah is absolved from that.

    So what is heard or read and named Speech of Allah is simply because that is what it signifies, nothing more. It is not His Speech in reality: not the Arabic Qur'an, nor the Hebrew Thaurat or the Syrian Injil. All these are, simply, created expressions of Allah's Eternal Speech - not the Speech of Allah Himself.

    And consider his last sentence we've quoted: The expression differ but not his Speech, just like Allah is called by different expression while His Essence is One.

    This is because they consider the Names of Allah as created! We seek refuge with Allah from unbelief! We shall mention that another time in our forum http://s3.invisionfree.com/sunnipress.

    The aforementioned Abu'l-Mu'in al-Nasafi said also in his Tabsira al-Adillat:

    "And these wordings (alfz) are named a Qur'an and Speech of Allah to enforce the Speech of Allah, the Exalted, by it and it is in itself created. And the Speech which is an Attribute of Allah, the Exalted, is not created.

    And the teachers of ours from the Imams of Samarqand - the ones who have united upon knowledge of the Usl and the Fur' - their saying concerning this was to say:

    The Qur'an is the Speech of Allah and His Attribute, and the Speech of Allah is uncreated and likewise His description.

    And they would not say straightly: The Qur'an is not created.

    Fearing that it may come up in the hearer's mind that these composed expressions from letters and sounds are not created, as the Hanbalites say so.."


    Take another look: The wordings Gabriel, the Prophet and we hear, read and write are named a Qur'an and Speech of Allah to enforce the very Speech of Allah by it - meaning: it is not Allah's own Speech these wordings, but they enforce [something else: namely] Allah's Speech. Cause these wordings are created, and what is enforced is uncreated.

    And watch carefully how according to Abu'l-Mu'in al-Nasafi's own testimony the Maturidiyyah expressed their opinion concerning the Qur'an al-Karim: it is uncreated as the Speech of Allah as an Attribute is. He did not say openly and clearly: the Qur'an is uncreated, except if the phrase 'Speech of Allah' is added. He did that before in his K. al-Tamhid as we've mentioned!

    The Qur'an is therefore two things with them: the Qur'an with the meaming of 'Inner Speech' which is uncreated, ánd the Qur'an present among us which is of letters and is therefore created. It has been expressed by sound, therefore created. It can be called Arabic, therefore created. Or Hebrew and Syrian therefore contingent, created. It can be referred to in parts, counted and described in other features - therefore created. Below is an confirmation of what we stated before, shortly:

    Since without shame al-Taftazani (d.791), the major philosopher of the Maturidiyyah, said in comment concerning 'Umar al-Nasafi's words < And the Qur'an, the Speech of Allah the Exalted, is uncreated > the following:

    "And he followed the Qur'an by Speech of Allah, the Exalted, because of what the Shaykhs (i.e. the Maturidiyyah) mentioned from saying < The Qur'an, the Speech of Allah the Exalted, is uncreated > and not to say < The Qur'an is uncreated >, fearing that it may come up to the mind that the thing composed of sounds and letters is eternal, like the Hanbalites opinioned ignorantly, obstinently.."

    And the Maturidites say without modesty and shame - just like the later-day Ash'arites - that there is no difference between us and the Mu'tazilites that the Qur'an is created!

    The only difference is that the Mu'tazilah know only one Speech of Allah, the Qur'an, which is created. While the Maturidites profess in addition another Speech of Allah called 'Inner Speech' which they call eternal.

    Here is al-Taftazani again from his Sharh of al-Nasafiyyah:

    "And the reality of our difference between us and them (i.e. the Mu'tazilah) goes back to the affirmation of the Inner Speech and its denial. The only thing is: we do not speak about the eternity of the alfz and letters [nor with not saying that they are created] and they do not speak about the createdness of the Inner Speech."

    And from a Maturidite, a certain 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Farhr who was alive in 1239 AH and wrote a Hashiyah upon it, is mentioned:

    "And even if the two parties did not differ concerning the affirmation of an Inner [Speech] and its denial, then there is still no dispute. For we when we say < The Qur'an is uncreated > we intend the Inner [Speech]. And if we say: < The Qur'an is created > we intend the expressed [Speech]. So we do not speak about the eternity of the wordings and the letters, but rather of its createdness just like the Mu'tazilah say. And they do not speak of the createdness of the Inner [Speech], but rather they deny its existence. And even if they affirmed it (i.e. the Inner Speech) they would have spoken of its eternity, just like we said.."

    meaning: we and the Mu'tazilites are the same concerning this!

    And consider the following saying of this same al-Taftazani, deprived of sound beliefs concerning the Qur'an al-Karim:

    "Speech [of Allah] that is stated means the Inner Speech. So the meaning of being Speech of Allah is His Attribute. And it is stated about the expressed [Speech] created, composed of Surahs and Ayats. And the meaning of it being ascribed to Allah is: That it is Allah's creation, not from the composed things of the creatures."

    Then take a look how its commentator, al-Farhr, comments upon this:

    "He meant [i.e. al-Taftazani] that it [i.e. the Qur'an] is Makhluq-lillah, the Exalted, without intermediary, acquisited from the creatures, either through the sound untill an Angel hears it or a Messenger, or through the inscriptions from the Tablet, or by the creation of a perception (idrk) of the letters in the heart of an Angel or a Messenger, or by the creation of the letters upon his tongue without his choice."

    Ponder upon this deviation! In fact, the Maturidites have stated clearly that Allah, the Exalted, created a voice and letter which Gabriel heard, then kept safe untill he delivered it to our Prophet, the peace be upon him! At the same time they say: The Speech of Allah is eternal, without letter or sound. In fact, in contradistinction of the Ash'arites they agreed altogether upon that Musa, the peace and blessing upon him, did not hear Allah's uncreated Speech, but rather heard sound and letter created by Allah! The Ash'arites were better than them concerning this issue: they opinioned the possibility of hearing Allah's Speech, a thing a Maturidite would deny!?!

    None other than al-Kawthari - the infamous Jahmite - stated:

    "Actually, the Qur'an which is in the Well-Preserved Tablet, and upon the tongue of Gabriel, the peace upon him, and upon the tongue of the Prophet, the peace and blessing upon him, and upon the tongues of the rest of the reciters and in the their hearts and in their tablets is created.."

    And who would find fault with al-Kawthari and his predecessors from the Maturidiyyah, their big ones and their little ones, concerning this subject when they subscribed to whatever their Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi opinioned?

    And this man himself stated quite clearly - contrary to some people here who probably fear our response more than they fear Allah, the Fast one in Punishment - words that we hope our brethren of today would never utter:

    "It is not the saying (qawl) from Allah that {Kun} with the Kf and the Nn is, but it is rather an expression bi-awjaza kalam enforcing the complete understood meaning.."

    that is: the Saying of the Al-Mighty {Kun} in several Ayats, cf. {Kun fa-yakn}, is nothing but an Majzi expression ascribed to Him, not literally His. {Kun}, composed of two letters, is not Allah's Word but it, simply, enforces al-Ma'na al-Tam al-Mafhm as the author of the Ta'wilt Ahl al-Sunnah says, i.e. Imam al-Maturidi, may Allah forgive him!

    And as Allah, the Most Merciful, may forgive this man for his clear deviation concerning this matter, may He be praised that one of his followers opposed this and said:

    "And the word {Kun} Allah Spoke by it literally (haqqati), not figuratively (majzan)"

    says Abu'l-Yusr al-Bazdawi in his Kanz al-Wusl.

    And this is nothing but a small selection from what has been mentioned from the Maturidiyyah concerning the Qur'an al-Karim, which is Allah's Speech. And their expression of the Qur'an we all know being, in fact, created is more manifest than with the Ash'arites.

    So we asked the Ash'arites:

    Who said {Alif Lm Mm}?

    We ask the Maturidites:

    Who said {Kun: fa ya-kn}?


    May Allah protect us from misguidance, Amin.
    Last edited by ; 11th October 2006 at 09:33 AM.

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    JazakumAllahu Khairan for that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharif_Abu_Jafar
    So we asked the Ash'arites:

    Who said {Alif Lm Mm}?

    We ask the Maturidites:

    Who said {Kun: fa ya-kn}?


    May Allah protect us from misguidance, Amin.
    as salaamu 'alaikum.

    Kullabi Asharites or Maturidis who are posting here can't answer this question because they will face the same problem they have with the attribute of 'yad'.
    If these mutakalimeen say, 'Allah said {Alif Laam Meem}' then the face the same problem, if Allah said then certainly to say/speak then He must have mouth and tongue and all the other organs. Since as Imam Bukhari said in his classical masterpiece book Khalq Afaal al-Ibaad wa Radd ala Jahmiyya and I quote, "The people of knowledge have said that the Jahmis are the real anthropomorphists".

    The disease of anthropomorphism is within the people of Ahl al-Kalaam. They have the disease of imagining and likening the attributes of Allah with themselves and hence they negate them.

    So we await to see the reply from Kullabi Asharites , Maturidis and their likes.

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    Default Re: The Maturidis believe: The Qur'an is created

    Here is the translation of the commentary on the Nasafi creed (ie Maturidi) by Taftazani, translated by Elder and published by Columbia University:

    A Commentary on the Creed of Islam Sad al-Din al-Taftazani on the Creed of Najm al-Din al-Nasafi - T
    Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions (Quran 4:82)

    'Ibn Taymiyyah Against the Logicians' p. 114:
    'What truth there lies in logic can be known without the logicians'

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