Wahhabi Contention: A & M contradict themselves by affirming some attributes and not affirming other

[AbuNaim]

Wahhabi Contention:

The Asharis and Maturidis contradict themselves. They affirm for Allah Life, Power, Will, Knowledge, Speech, Hearing and Sight, while making Ta’wil of Istiwa’, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Janb, ‘Ain, and relocation in (various) levels. The basic rule with regards to the attributes is one, so if you affirm the seven attributes, what prevents you from affirming the rest? What is the difference? This is nothing less than a contradiction.

Sunni Response:

There is no contradiction. Asharis and Maturidis do not deny any attribute that Allah has affirmed in the Quran, or that are established by flawless hadiths. What they do is believe that no attribute of Allah is like that of creation, because “He does not resemble anything.” This means that “yad” does not mean a physical hand, but something else in agreement with the Arabic language, and that nuzuul does not mean physical descent, but something else in agreement with the Arabic language. This is because Allah is not like creation, and limbs, location and movement are attributes of created things. All of Allah’s attributes are understood in this way in the Ashari and Maturidi school, including Life, Power, Will, Knowledge, Speech, Hearing and Sight, so there is no contradiction. The rule is to affirm attributes established unequivocally, and to deny that they have any resemblance to creation. To be clear: this is not denial of the attributes, but of their resemblance to creation.

The people who contradict themselves are those who say, for example, that “nuzuul” involves movement, because this contradicts with “He does not resemble anything.” Movement is a created attribute, because it has a beginning and needs specification. That is, it did not exist, and then it existed, so it needs a creator. Moreover, it needs a specification of “from where to where,” and “at what speed.” Clearly then, Allah is not attributed with movement, because his attributes are not created.

Moreover, to believe that Allah moves to the sky of this world, is to believe that Allah becomes inside the creation, because this is below the seven skies. This is blasphemy by consensus of all Muslims.

Finally, it has been established in a hadith narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and authenticated by Al-Asqalani (Fath-al-Baari, V.13/P.411) that the Prophet said:

“مَا السَّمَاوَات السَّبْع مَعَ الْكُرْسِيّ إِلاّ كَحَلْقَةٍ مُلْقَاة بِأَرْضٍ فَلاة وَفَضْل الْعَرْش عَلَى الْكُرْسِيّ كَفَضْلِ الْفَلاة عَلَى الْحَلْقَة”"

The Seven Skies compared to the Kursiy is like a ring thrown on the ground in a desert, and the size of the Arsh compared to the Kursiy is like the size of the desert compared to the ring.”

Accordingly, if someone believes Allah descends physically, then he is saying that Allah is like a ring in the desert compared to the Kursiy, or that He crashes the skies on every descent, or that He is like a cloud passing through them. Can there be any doubt that all of this is blasphemy?

Author: Shaykh Abu Adam al Naruiji

[Isma'eel]

I see you've resorted to flooding the forum with nonsense after you were refuted.

[macb]

I see you've resorted to flooding the forum with nonsense after you were refuted.

Indeed. What is the old saying 'The caravans will pass whether the dogs bark or not.' Something long those lines.

Michael

[AbuNaim]

Indeed. What is the old saying 'The caravans will pass whether the dogs bark or not.' Something long those lines.

Michael

You people can only refute youre selfs, speaking about dogs....are that English Dogs?

[Isma'eel]

What do you get out of constantly mentioning the brother's ethnic background? I have seen you do this in other threads, do you think that you are more muslim than him becaue he is English or something?

[AbuNaim]

What do you get out of constantly mentioning the brother's ethnic background? I have seen you do this in other threads, do you think that you are more muslim than him becaue he is English or something?

Did i say that? Be carefull what you attribute to me.

Beside Imaam Abu Hanifa said in Kitaab al Wasiyya;

''Faith does not increase nor decrease because its decreasing is inconceivable but with the increasing of disbelief and its increasing is inconceivable but with the decreasing of disbelief. How can it be pertinent that one person be in the same state a believer and a disbeliever? A believer is a believer truly, and a disbeliever is truly a disbeliever. There is no [element of] doubt in Faith, just as there is no [element of] doubt in disbelief, because of the word of Allah the Exalted: ‘They are, truly, the believers.’(8; 4), and [because of Allah’s word:] ‘They are, truly, the disbelievers.’(4; 151) The sinners of the nation (ummah) of Muhammad, peace be upon him, are all believers, truly, and they are not disbelievers.''

So how should i even think about it?

['Abd al-Kareem]

AbuNaim,

Please consider the following Ayaat:

3:173 الَّذِينَ قَالَ لَهُمُ النَّاسُ إِنَّ النَّاسَ قَدْ جَمَعُواْ لَكُمْ فَاخْشَوْهُمْ فَزَادَهُمْ إِيمَاناً وَقَالُواْ حَسْبُنَا اللّهُ وَنِعْمَ الْوَكِيلُ

Those to whom the people said: Surely men have gathered against you, therefore fear them, but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent is the Protector.

8:2 إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِرَ اللّهُ وَجِلَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَإِذَا تُلِيَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُهُ زَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَاناً وَعَلَى رَبِّهِمْ يَتَوَكَّلُونَ

For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord;

9:124 وَإِذَا مَا أُنزِلَتْ سُورَةٌ فَمِنْهُم مَّن يَقُولُ أَيُّكُمْ زَادَتْهُ هَـذِهِ إِيمَاناً فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ فَزَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَاناً وَهُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ

Whenever there cometh down a sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had His faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe,- their faith is increased and they do rejoice.

['Abd al-Kareem]

The above post was off-topic. If you wish to respond, please open up a new thread.

To stay on topic:

Yes 'A &M' do cause a big problem when the affirm some and deny others.
Please answer the following:

1. Who is telling them what to affirm and what to deny? The Attributes all appear in the same formats, so how come they are picking and choosing which to affirm and which to deny?

2. Where are they getting their 're-interpretation' from? Sometimes they can't outright reject an Attribute because it is in the Qur'an or it is mutawaatir, so they just re-interpret it. This is distressing because where are they getting this re-interpretation from?

3. This is related to #2. They re-interpret most of the Attributes which they come across. As we all know, most of the Ummah are laymen and this has always been the case. So what about when a desert bedoiun reads the very first Ayah: "BismillahirRahmanirRaheem" ? What will come to his mind?

How will the re-interpretation reach him? He is simple and probably never picked up a tafseer book in his life nor does he plan to. The only ahaadith he knows are the ones he hears at Friday khutbah...

[Um Abdullah M.]

Sunni Response:

There is no contradiction. Asharis and Maturidis do not deny any attribute that Allah has affirmed in the Quran, or that are established by flawless hadiths. What they do is believe that no attribute of Allah is like that of creation, because “He does not resemble anything.” This means that “yad” does not mean a physical hand, but something else in agreement with the Arabic language

Like power? or ability? or ??
why isn't the same principle applied to sight and hearing?
why aren't they believing that it means "something else" in agreement with the Arabic language?
At least Mu'tazilah followed their principle all the way and not pick and choose, all based on greek logic.

Moreover, to believe that Allah moves to the sky of this world, is to believe that Allah becomes inside the creation, because this is below the seven skies. This is blasphemy by consensus of all Muslims.

no salafi believes this, our belief is Allah makes nuzool while He is upon His Throne. We don't know how.
We believe that Allah is clear from His creation.

Finally, it has been established in a hadith narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and authenticated by Al-Asqalani (Fath-al-Baari, V.13/P.411) that the Prophet said:

“مَا السَّمَاوَات السَّبْع مَعَ الْكُرْسِيّ إِلاّ كَحَلْقَةٍ مُلْقَاة بِأَرْضٍ فَلاة وَفَضْل الْعَرْش عَلَى الْكُرْسِيّ كَفَضْلِ الْفَلاة عَلَى الْحَلْقَة”"

The Seven Skies compared to the Kursiy is like a ring thrown on the ground in a desert, and the size of the Arsh compared to the Kursiy is like the size of the desert compared to the ring.”

Accordingly, if someone believes Allah descends physically, then he is saying that Allah is like a ring in the desert compared to the Kursiy, or that He crashes the skies on every descent, or that He is like a cloud passing through them. Can there be any doubt that all of this is blasphemy?

Author: Shaykh Abu Adam al Naruiji

plz tell your shaykh Abu Adam al Naruji to educate himself about "wahhabi" beliefs before accusing them of things they don't believe.

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

remember this is the guy who thinks tafweed is made on ALLAH Ta'ala being al-Adheem