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(Music) How accurate is the claim that..

This is a discussion on (Music) How accurate is the claim that.. within the Islamic Law forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; I stopped listening to music about 5 years ago. Alhamdulillah! it's absolute filth promoting zina, violence, shirk.. yet people want ...

  1. #21
    Off the Manhaj Abu Dharr's Avatar
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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    I stopped listening to music about 5 years ago. Alhamdulillah! it's absolute filth promoting zina, violence, shirk.. yet people want to listen to it? what about your children? will you allow your daughter to listen to hip hop, the same genre that tells her that the only way she can make it in life, is if she shows off her body? good luck telling her to wear hijab, when her fav artists tells her to behave like an animal.
    O turner of the hearts, turn our hearts to Your obedience.

    So have two marriages and have a full deen- justabro

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    The above post has the response to pretty much everything that Imam John mentioned. Read it carefully. Lots of Tadlis and lies in what he says.
    Who is Imam John and what did Imam John write which was tadlis and lies, can you point out specific lies/tadlies.


    in your post (Music) How accurate is the claim that..
    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    Abu Malik al-Ash`ari$ reported that Allah’s Messenger% said, “There will be people from my Ummah that rule fornication, silk [for men], alcohol, and musical instruments as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, ‘Return to us tomorrow.’ Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.”
    Critique of this hadith:
    Some have judged this hadith as weak, however, when taking everything into account,
    who are these "Some" who have judged this hadith as weak, does Imam John mention this in his tadlis and lies or may be you can point out if Imam john missed it. Don't forget to mention the reasons/justification for judging this hadith as weak. They must have some reasons for the weakness.

    Then you posted :

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    First doubt:
    4) Regardless of all of that, the narration of `Abdullah bin Ja`far is weak. Ibn `Asakir reported it in his Tarikh (31/177) through the narration of Khalaf al-Khiyam, someone who was weakened by:
    a. Ibn al-Jawzi.
    b. Abu Zur`ah al-Razi.
    c. Al-Hakim al-Naisaburi.
    d. Abu Ya`la al-Khalili.
    e. Al-Thahabi
    It is amazing how one would reject an authentic hadith from Bukhari, but then proceed to use fabricated narrations as evidence
    Who is the author of this posts, he says first about the hadith of bukhari "Some have judged this hadith as weak" then says "reject an authentic hadith from Bukhari" ; Is he talking about the same hadith or some other hadith ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    The above post has the response to pretty much everything that Imam John mentioned. Read it carefully. Lots of Tadlis and lies in what he says.
    Last edited by Abu Ashari; 12th May 2014 at 01:23 PM.

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    You DON'T wanna know! Nazeelu Chinguetti's Avatar
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    Default (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Who is the author of this posts, he says first about the hadith of bukhari "Some have judged this hadith as weak" then says "reject an authentic hadith from Bukhari" ; Is he talking about the same hadith or some other hadith ?
    Abu Ash'ari you are everywhere with no tools! You consider the Hadith questionable in its Dalalah while even Ibn Hazm didn't!

    Calm down this is Sahih ul-Bukhari not a joke. Ibn Hazm weakened the Hadith during to not knowing al-Bukhari's way of dealing with things. He considered the Hadith Munqati' and this is his reasoning while the fact is that it's well known that Hisham Ibn 'Ammar is from al-Bukharis teachers. This is such an obvious fault from Ibn Hazm that the Muhadithin started mentioning the issue in books of Usul ul-Hadith. And once again Ibn Hazm isn't an Imam In Ilm ul-Hadith or Ilm ul-'Ilal due to fundamental issues.



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    Last edited by Nazeelu Chinguetti; 12th May 2014 at 01:44 PM.
    ​من يرد الله به خيراً يفقهه في الدين

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    Abu Ash'ari you are everywhere with no tools!
    : المسلم من سلم المسلمون من لسانه ويده
    The Muslim is one from whose tongue and hand the Muslims are safe

    speak good or remain silent

    No need to say i'm everywhere with no tools. Just reply academically. Don't need extra stuff to prove yourself whatever you want to prove.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    You consider the Hadith questionable in its Dalalah while even Ibn Hazm didn't!
    I don't know why you keep bringing up ibn hazm ?! whatever you say, provide evidence for your claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    Calm down this is Sahih ul-Bukhari not a joke.

    ok.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    Ibn Hazm weakened the Hadith during to not knowing al-Bukhari's way of dealing with things. He considered the Hadith Munqati' and this is his reasoning while the fact is that it's well known that Hisham Ibn 'Ammar is from al-Bukharis teachers. This is such an obvious fault from Ibn Hazm that the Muhadithin started mentioning the issue in books of Usul ul-Hadith. And once again Ibn Hazm isn't an Imam In Ilm ul-Hadith or Ilm ul-'Ilal due to fundamental issues.
    Again, don't know why you keep bringing Ibn Hazm, also, provide proof that Ibn Hazm isn't Imam in Ilm al-Hadith or Ilm al-Ilal. I am hearing this for the first time. Can you please quote statements of scholars to support your claim.





    http://www.almeshkat.net/books/archi...20alashraf.rar



    الكتاب : تحفة الأشراف بمعرفة الأطراف
    المؤلف : جمال الدين أبو الحجاج يوسف بن عبد الرحمن المزي (المتوفى : 742هـ)
    المحقق : عبد الصمد شرف الدين
    طبعة : المكتب الإسلامي ، والدار القيّمة
    الطبعة الثانية: 1403هـ ، 1983م


    وعلامة ما استشهد، بِهِ تعليقا (خت). و

    وعلامة ما أخرجه البخاري (خ).


    12161 -
    [خت د]
    حديث ليكونّن في أُمتي أقوام يستحلون الخمر والحرير... الحديث.
    خ في الأشربة (6 تعليقاً) : وقال هشام بن عمار، حدثنا صدقة بن خالد، قال : حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن يزيد بن جابر، قال : حدثنا عطية بن قيس، قال : حدثني عبد الرحمن بن غنم، قال حدثني أبو عامر (ح 12065) أو أبو مالك الأشعري... فذكره.
    د في اللباس (8 : 2) عن عبد الوهاب بن نجدة، عن بشر بن بكر، عن عبد الرحمن بن يزيد بن جابر بإسناده - نحوه : ليكونّن من أُمَّتي أقوام يستحلون الخزَّ والحرير... الحديث.


    Is Mizzi also one of those who don't know hadith, and ilal of hadith ???


    and I am waiting for Abu_Ubaida for a reply. want to see who this imam john is and with lots of tadlis and lies as the brother put it.


    No wonder Shaykh al-Islam al-Ansari said regarding seeking [knowledge] of hadith



    "هذا الشأن شأن من ليس له شأن سوى هذا الشأن"




    Last edited by Abu Ashari; 12th May 2014 at 02:57 PM.

  7. #25
    TIOCFAIDH AR LA Die for Allah's Avatar
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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Ashari View Post
    : المسلم من سلم المسلمون من لسانه ويده
    The Muslim is one from whose tongue and hand the Muslims are safe

    speak good or remain silent

    No need to say i'm everywhere with no tools. Just reply academically. Don't need extra stuff to prove yourself whatever you want to prove.
    Well why don't you practice what you preach?
    Personally I don't think what the brother said to you was harsh or insulting, but your accusation against Mufti Abu Layth was actually much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Ashari View Post

    As for Abu Layth officially getting dumped by Deobandis, well it doesn't make any difference to Sunnis if he is onboard or offboard, because this person is a rabid enemy of Salafi creed which he brands it as Anthropomorphic Creed on his blog Aqeedah (Creed) | Seeking Ilm.com
    Here you have made false accusations against Abu Layth al Maliki based on your ignorance and have confused him with some other Abu Layth.

    You have not corrected your slanderous lies and false accusations despite the fact that brothers advised you of your mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Afrikii View Post
    The "Abu Layth" of seekingilm.com and the "Mufti Abu Layth" who is a Maliki scholar from the UK are two different individuals.

    So the Muslims are not safe from your tongue are they? You make false accusations against Muslims and do not retract even when you are informed of your crime.
    “And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: “This is lawful and this is forbidden,” so as to invent lies against Allaah. Verily, those who invent lies against Allaah will never prosper.” [al-Nahl 16:116].

    Syed Qutb (ra) when asked to seek pardon from nasser said
    Verily the index finger that testifies to the oneness of Allah in prayer utterly rejects to write even one letter that endorses the rule of the tyrant

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Die for Allah View Post
    Well why don't you practice what you preach?
    Personally I don't think what the brother said to you was harsh or insulting, but your accusation against Mufti Abu Layth was actually much worse.



    Here you have made false accusations against Abu Layth al Maliki based on your ignorance and have confused him with some other Abu Layth.

    You have not corrected your slanderous lies and false accusations despite the fact that brothers advised you of your mistake




    So the Muslims are not safe from your tongue are they? You make false accusations against Muslims and do not retract even when you are informed of your crime.



    The intended person was Abu Layth of seekingilm and not some other Abu layth. So I stand corrected, secondly, Mufti Abu Layth al-Maliki has not responded to Mufti Zameel ur Rahman refutation which tore his "scholarship" apart. In absence of refutation from Abu Layth al-Maliki and the sufficient proofs provided by Mufti Zameel, i don't see any reason why anyone should follow abu layth who is different than abu layth of seekingilm. I thought he is same. jazakAllah to the brother who clarified this. Is this clear and enough for you ? thank you for bringing this up. Besides, it doesn't matter what you think of nazeelu's saying on me, because you are not speaking on my behalf.

    Seems like you are one of the admirers of Abu Layth al-Maliki, if you are intouch with him , ask him to reply to Zameel. Would be interesting to learn more by his defense specifically this part " are we allowed to adopt a particular way of life against the sunnah to suit the society in which we live? "

    Can you continue with the discussion, please stick with the topic. I myself would like to know the evidences and proofs for making music haram, i have been doing in depth study for quite some time, may be those who say it is haram have some proofs that the scholars who made it lawful have not come across. I am not here for argumentation or to show off my knowledge or expertise. This is a sincere quest to find the bottom of it. May Allah have mercy on all sunni muslims.
    Last edited by Abu Ashari; 12th May 2014 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    There's no proof in it at all. Two underaged girls were singing poetry of war between Aws and Khazraj from the Jahiliyyah. This is what took place. The Hadith mentioned 'Yawm Bu'aath' a day of a war that took place between Aws and Khazraj and Aws were the victorious ones.
    so ?? I fail to see any relevance here besides.. Also, i note you mentioned "singing poetry" , can you please point where in the hadith it mentions Poetry ?! what poetry was it ? do you have the poem which they were reciting ?



    روى البخاري في صحيحه (كتاب العيدين) عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت {دخل علي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وعندي جاريتان (من جوار الأنصار) (وفي رواية: قينتان) (في أيام منى, تدففان وتضربان), تغنيان بغناء (وفي رواية: بما تقاولت) الأنصار يوم بعاث, (وليستا بمغنيتين) فاضطجع على الفراش, وحول وجهه, ودخل أبو بكر (والنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم متغش بثوبة) فانتهرني أو فانتهرها وقال: مزمارة أو مزمار الشيطان عند (وفي رواية: أمزامير الشيطان في بيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم مرتين.فاقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم (وفي رواية: فكشف النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عن وجهه) فقال: دعهما يا ابابكر فان لكل قوم عيدا وهذا عيدنا, فلما غفل غمزتهما فخرجتا}.و



    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    Mizmar here is an Isti'arah for a beautiful voice. So no the point is not clear at all. And don't think something that was hidden for so many scholars who affirmed an Ijma' is clear for you.
    This is your own interpretation that Mizmar in this hadeeth is beautiful voice. if it was a beautiful voice why would Abu Bakr as Siddiq (rad) stop them ? How does beautiful voice equate as satanic voice ? What's wrong with beautiful voice ? Many Sahaba used to recite poetry in Praise of our master sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. This is a very far-fetched interpretation which I never came across.

    I think you are confusing mizmar from the hadith which mentions Abu Musa al-Ashari and likely using your intuition and applying that on other hadiths. those scholars who permitted it, did they depend on the hadith about Abu Musa al-Ashari (rad) ?? they have used the Hadith from Ayesha (rad) which you have seen above. I will disapprove your interpretation :

    (1)


    إِنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ قَيْسٍ أَوِ الْأَشْعَرِيَّ أُعْطِيَ مِزْمَارًا مِنْ مَزَامِيرِ آلِ دَاوُدَ
    يا أبا موسى لقد أوتيت مزمارا من مزامير آل داود
    قال لقد أوتي هذا مزمارا من مزامير آل داود وإذا هو عبد الله بن قيس أبو موسى الأشعري




    Ibn Hajar gives the explanation:


    فسر ابن حجر في الفتح مزامير آل داود بقوله: والمراد بالمزمار الصوت الحسن ، وأصله الآلة أطلق اسمه على الصوت للمشابهة. اهـ

    Ibn Athir gives the explanation:



    ( س ) ومنه حديث أبي بكر أبمزمور الشيطان في بيت رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - وفي رواية مزمارة الشيطان عند النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - المزمور - بفتح الميم وضمها - والمزمار سواء ، وهو الآلة التي يزمر بها .


    وفي حديث أبي موسى سمعه النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يقرأ فقال : لقد أعطيت مزمارا من مزامير آل داود شبه حسن صوته وحلاوة نغمته بصوت المزمار . وداود هو النبي عليه السلام ، وإليه المنتهى في حسن الصوت بالقراءة . والآل في قوله " آل داود " مقحمة . قيل معناه هاهنا الشخص .


    something of relevance

    لا تَصحَبُ المَلاَئِكَةُ رُفقَةً فيها كَلْبٌ ولا جَرَسٌ
    الجرس مزامير الشيطان










    (2) If you look here الموسوعة الفقهية الكويتية
    الموسوعة الشاملة - الموسوعة الفقهية الكويتية

    You get the understanding of the meaning of Mizmar, which is not what as you say, Since you are one of those who are supporting prohibition then i thought you would know the sayings of scholars for example:
    قال النووي : الأصح تحريم اليراع ، قالوا : لأنه مطرب بانفراده ، بل قيل إنه آلة كاملة لجميع النغمات إلا يسيرا فحرم كسائر المزامير .......أخ
    وذهب الحنابلة إلى أن آلات المعازف تحرم سوى الدف ، كمزمار وناي وزمارة الراعي سواء استعملت لحزن أو سرور ، وسأل ابن الحكم الإمام أحمد عن النفخ في القصبة



    (3) As for Ijma which you are claming then what was the ijma based upon, which hadith or explicit quranic verse ? How do you claim ijma when there is a difference of opinion ? What is the meaning of Ijma brother , is there any room of difference of opinion in Ijma ? This itself, is differed among scholars, so we will not discuss this here. This is different subject itself



    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    If you are referring to the Hadith of Ma'azif being weak then it's a result of your weakness in Hadith.
    "If you are referring to the Hadith of Ma'azif being weak then it's a result of your weakness in Hadith"

    No sir, this is not true at all, not because of me. I will just point out to you once more,


    قال البخاري : وَقَالَ هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ: حَدَّثَنَا صَدَقَةُ بْنُ خَالِدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ يَزِيدَ بْنِ جَابِرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَطِيَّةُ بْنُ قَيْسٍ الكِلاَبِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ غَنْمٍ الأَشْعَرِيُّ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو عَامِرٍ أَوْ أَبُو مَالِكٍ الْأَشْعَرِيُّ، وَاللَّهِ مَا كَذَبَنِي: سَمِعَ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ: " لَيَكُونَنَّ مِنْ أُمَّتِي أَقْوَامٌ، يَسْتَحِلُّونَ الحِرَ وَالحَرِيرَ، وَالخَمْرَ وَالمَعَازِفَ، وَلَيَنْزِلَنَّ أَقْوَامٌ إِلَى جَنْبِ عَلَمٍ، يَرُوحُ عَلَيْهِمْ بِسَارِحَةٍ لَهُمْ، يَأْتِيهِمْ - يَعْنِي الفَقِيرَ - لِحَاجَةٍ فَيَقُولُونَ: ارْجِعْ إِلَيْنَا غَدًا، فَيُبَيِّتُهُمُ اللَّهُ، وَيَضَعُ العَلَمَ، وَيَمْسَخُ آخَرِينَ قِرَدَةً وَخَنَازِيرَ إِلَى
    يَوْمِ القِيَامَةِ "

    عَطِيَّةُ بْنُ قَيْسٍ الكِلاَبِيُّ =
    قال عنه أبو حاتم الرازي
    , صالح الحديث

    What is the meaning of Salih al-hadeeth brother ? is the hadeeth of the person declared salih al-hadeeth taken as evidence or it is only written ?

    Then I showed you from al-Mizzi :


    الكتاب : تحفة الأشراف بمعرفة الأطراف
    المؤلف : جمال الدين أبو الحجاج يوسف بن عبد الرحمن المزي (المتوفى : 742هـ)
    المحقق : عبد الصمد شرف الدين
    طبعة : المكتب الإسلامي ، والدار القيّمة
    الطبعة الثانية: 1403هـ ، 1983م


    وعلامة ما استشهد، بِهِ تعليقا (خت). و

    وعلامة ما أخرجه البخاري (خ).و


    12161 -
    [خت د]
    حديث ليكونّن في أُمتي أقوام يستحلون الخمر والحرير... الحديث.
    خ في الأشربة (6 تعليقاً) : وقال هشام بن عمار، حدثنا صدقة بن خالد، قال : حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن يزيد بن جابر، قال : حدثنا عطية بن قيس، قال : حدثني عبد الرحمن بن غنم، قال حدثني أبو عامر (ح 12065) أو أبو مالك الأشعري... فذكره.
    د في اللباس (8 : 2) عن عبد الوهاب بن نجدة، عن بشر بن بكر، عن عبد الرحمن بن يزيد بن جابر بإسناده - نحوه : ليكونّن من أُمَّتي أقوام يستحلون الخزَّ والحرير... الحديث.





    Then from Ayni the author of Umdat al-Qari

    from
    المهلب بن أبي صفرة (ت 435)


    زم معاذ بن جبل رضي الله عنه منذ بعثه رسول الله إلى اليمن إلى أن مات في خلافة عمر رضي الله عنه وسمع من عمر بن الخطاب وكان أفقه أهل الشام وهو الذي فقه عامة التابعين بالشام ومات بالشام سنة ثمان وسبعين قوله قال حدثني أبو عامر أو أبو مالك الأشعري هكذا رواه أكثر الحفاظ عن هشام بن عمار بالشك وكذا وقع عند الإسماعيلي من رواية بشر بن بكر لكن وقع في رواية أبي داود من رواية بشر بن بكر حدثني أبو مالك بغير شك والراجح أنه عن أبي مالك الأشعري وهو صحابي مشهور قيل اسمه كعب وقيل عمرو وقيل عبد الله وقيل عبيد يعد في الشاميين وأما أبو عامر الأشعري فقال المزي اختلف في اسمه فقيل عبيد الله بن هانىء وقيل عبد الله بن وهب وقيل عبيد بن وهب سكن الشام وليس بعم أبي موسى الأشعري ذاك قتل أيام حنين في حياة النبي واسمه عبيد بن حضار وهذا بقي إلى زمن عبد الملك بن مروان فإن قلت قال المهلب هذا حديث ضعيف لأن البخاري لم يسنده من أجل شك المحدث في ( الصاحب ) فقال أبو عامر أو أبو مالك قلت هذا ليس بشيء إذ الترديد في الصحابي لا يضر إذ كلهم عدول قوله والله ما كذبني هذا تأكيد ومبالغة في صدق الصحابي لأن عدالة الصحابة معلومة وقال بعضهم هذا يؤيد رواية الجماعة أنه عن واحد لا عن اثنين قيل هذا كلام ساقط لأنه من قال إن هذا الحديث من اثنين حتى يؤيد بهذا اللفظ أنه من واحد قلت لا بل هو كلام موجه لأن ابن حبان روى عن الحسين بن عبد الله عن هشام بهذا السند إلى عبد الرحمن بن غنم أنه سمع أبا عامر وأبا مالك الأشعريين يقولان فذكر الحديث كذا قال والمحفوظ رواية الجماعة بالشك قوله من أمتي قال ابن التين قوله من أمتي يحتمل أن يريد من تسمى بهم ويستحل ما لا يحل فهو كافر إن أظهر ذلك ومنافق إن أسره أو يكون مرتكب المحارم تهاونا واستخفافا فهو يقارب الكفر والذي يوضح في النظر أن هذا لا يكون إلا ممن يعتقد الكفر ويتسم بالإسلام لأن الله عز وجل لا يخسف من تعود عليه رحمته في المعاد وقيل كونهم من الأمة يبعد معه أن يستحلوها بغير تأويل ولا تحريف فإن ذلك مجاهرة بالخروج عن الأمة إذ تحريم الخمر معلوم ضرورة قوله يستحلون الحر بكسر الحاء المهملة وتخفيف الراء أي الفرج وأصله الجرح فحذفت إحدى الحائين منه كذا ضبطه ابن ناصر وكذا هو في معظم الروايات من ( صحيح البخاري ) وقال ابن التين هو بالمعجمتين يعني الخز وقال ابن العربي هو تصحيف وإنما رويناه بالمهملتين وهو الفرج والمعنى يستحلون الزنا وقال أبو الفتح القشيري إن في كتاب أبي داود والبيهقي ما يقتضي أنه الخز بالزاي والخاء المعجمة وقال ابن بطال وهو الفرج وليس كما أوله من صحفه فقال الخز من أجل مقارنته الحرير فاستعمل التصحيف بالمقارنة وحكى عياض فيه تشديد الراء وقال ابن قرقول مخفف الراء فرج المرأة وهو الأصوب وقيل أصله بالتاء بعد الراء فحذفت وقال الداودي أحسب أن قوله من الخز ليس بمحفوظ لأن كثيرا من الصحابة لبسوه وقال المنذري أورد أبو داود هذا الخبر في باب ما جاء في




    قال المهلب: هذا الحديث لم يسنده البخارى من أجل شك المحدث فى الصاحب فقال: أبو عامر أو أبو مالك، أو لمعنى آخر لا أعلمه، وإنما أدخله البخارى على أنه جائز وقوعه من الله - تعالى - فى المسرفين على أنفسهم من أهل هذه الملة، وأنه مروى يجب أن يتوقع ما روى فيه من العقوبة، وليس فى هذا الحديث تسمية الخمر بغير اسمها، وقد جاء مبينًا من رواية ابن أبى شيبة فى هذا الحديث، قال ابن أبى شيبة: حدثنا زيد بن الخباب، عن معاوية بن صالح قال: حدثنا حاتم بن حريث، عن مالك ابن أبى مريم، عن عبد الرحمن بن غنم قال: حدثنى أبو مالك الأشعرى، أنه سمع رسول الله يقول: « يشرب ناس من أمتى الخمر يسمونها بغير اسمها، يضرب على رءوسهم بالمعازف والقينات، يخسف الله بهم الأرض، ويجعل منهم القردة والخنازير » .






    This is a very long discussion but the gist of it, that this hadeeth is disputed about the defect in it otherwise Bukhari would have used it as Hadathana instead of Qala and Muslim would have reported this hadeeth. Could be because of Attiyah which Ayni doesn't address.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post

    Even Ibn Hazm wasn't an expert in Ilm ul-Hadith an 'Ilal and he have fundamental faults in Ilm ul-'Ilal. And I'll say as al-Hafidh al-'Iraqi said in his Alfiyyah:

    وإن يكن اول الإسناد حذف ... مع صيغة الجزم فتعليقا عرف
    ولو الى اخره أما الذي ... لشيخه عزا بقال فكذي
    عنعنة كخبر المعازف ... لا تصغ لابن حزم المخالف
    If you are considering the Hadith questionable in regard to its Dalalah then even Ibn Hazm' an expert in debating and arguing, didn't question its Dalalah.
    and you mentioned again "And once again Ibn Hazm isn't an Imam In Ilm ul-Hadith or Ilm ul-'Ilal due to fundamental issues."



    Well, why don't you support your claim by quoting an expert in this area of Jarh wa Tadeel and Ilm al-hadeeth. Because I never heard what you claim, rather I have heard the exact opposite



    Here is it about Ibn Hazm from Dhahabi and Ibn Hajar



    الإمام الأوحد ، البحر ، ذو الفنون والمعارف أبو محمد ، علي بن أحمد بن سعيد بن حزم بن غالب بن صالح بن خلف بن معدان بن سفيان بن يزيد ، الفارسي الأصل ، ثم الأندلسي القرطبي اليزيدي مولى الأمير يزيد بن أبي سفيان بن حرب الأموي - رضي الله عنه - المعروف بيزيد الخير ، نائب أمير المؤمنين أبي حفص على دمشق ، الفقيه الحافظ ، المتكلم ، الأديب ، الوزير الظاهري ، صاحب التصانيف . فكان جده يزيد [ ص: 185 ] مولى للأمير يزيد أخي معاوية . وكان جده خلف بن معدان هو أول من دخل الأندلس في صحابة ملك الأندلس عبد الرحمن بن معاوية بن هشام ; المعروف بالداخل .


    قال أبو عبد الله الحميدي كان ابن حزم حافظا للحديث وفقهه ، [ ص: 188 ] مستنبطا للأحكام من الكتاب والسنة ، متفننا في علوم جمة ، عاملا بعلمه ، ما رأينا مثله فيما اجتمع له من الذكاء وسرعة الحفظ ، وكرم النفس والتدين ، وكان له في الأدب والشعر نفس واسع وباع طويل ، وما رأيت من يقول الشعر على البديه أسرع منه ، وشعره كثير جمعته على حروف المعجم .


    هو علي بن أحمد بن سعيد بن حزم أبو محمد الأندلسي القرطبي، الإمام، (ت:456). وقال ابن حجر: كان واسع الحفظ جدا إلا أنه لثقة حافظته كان يهجم، كالقول في التعديل والتخريج وتبين أسماء الرواة فيقع له من ذلك أوهام شنيعة.

    وقال صاعد بن أحمد: كان ابن حزم أجمع أهل الأندلس قاطبة لعلوم الإسلام، وأوسعهم معرفة مع توسعه في علم اللسان، ووفور حظه من البلاغة والشعر، ومعرفته بالسنن والآثار والأخبار.








    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post
    As for Ibn ul-Majishun then provide an Isnad.



    Al-Shawkani himself contradicts agreements on certain issues. And his claim isn't more trustworthy than the classical scholars who claimed Ijma' and they are many.

    The classical scholars are also more trustworthy in this because a lot of the confusion in this issue is a result of some kind of Ishtirak in certain words like Ghina', and attributions of opinions without any Isnad. And some of this confusion didn't exist at that time.

    later.....first let us tackle the issue of hadith then we can move on.



    Group 1 of Scholars use the hadeeth which Nazeelu pointed out to prohibit music. They were Mujtahideen.

    Group 2 of Scholars say, the hadeeth which Nazeelu pointed out, to be defective or has issues and use the Authentic Hadeeth from Ayesha (rad) to permit Music. They were also Mujtahideen.


    I find the evidence of the latter group strong because Group 1 doesn't address Group 2 hadeeth of Ayesha (rad) and also unsatisfactory answer to the defect in the Hadeeth. I have more questions about the defect in the hadeeth, if you can answer academically with references, I would like to continue the discussion.........otherwise no point in continuing.

    I don't know why some brothers here got really aggressive. The issue is simple. Follow either Group 1 or Group 2 and there is no Group 3 !!


    وصلى الله على سيدنا محمد وعلى آله وسلم تسليماً كثيرا




    Last edited by Abu Ashari; 12th May 2014 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazeelu Chinguetti View Post

    Al-Shawkani himself contradicts agreements on certain issues. And his claim isn't more trustworthy than the classical scholars who claimed Ijma' and they are many.

    The classical scholars are also more trustworthy in this because a lot of the confusion in this issue is a result of some kind of Ishtirak in certain words like Ghina', and attributions of opinions without any Isnad. And some of this confusion didn't exist at that time.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What about Al Ghazali & Ibn Arabi Al Maliki who differed for e.g.? They are classical scholars.

    As for the classical scholars who claimed ijmaa, was that ijmaa of the sahabah, or the ijmaa of scholars after that they were claiming?

    I ask because as you know, there is ikhtilaf on whether ijmaa is possible after the sahabahs era.

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    who are these "Some" who have judged this hadith as weak, does Imam John mention this in his tadlis and lies or may be you can point out if Imam john missed it. Don't forget to mention the reasons/justification for judging this hadith as weak. They must have some reasons for the weakness.
    Imam John Ederer from Suhaib Webb's website said that the hadith is weak.

    Who is the author of this posts, he says first about the hadith of bukhari "Some have judged this hadith as weak" then says "reject an authentic hadith from Bukhari" ; Is he talking about the same hadith or some other hadith ?
    Read his article, then what I wrote, and you will understand.

    I myself would like to know the evidences and proofs for making music haram, i have been doing in depth study for quite some time, may be those who say it is haram have some proofs that the scholars who made it lawful have not come across.
    There are no scholars before the 5th century who made it lawful, except, as al-Qurtubi said, some extremist Sufis. There's your proof. There are honestly so many evidences from Qur'an, Sunnah, statements of the Sahabah (which is Hujjah to the Hanbalis and Malikis, I believe), and Ijma`.

    What about Al Ghazali & Ibn Arabi Al Maliki who differed for e.g.? They are classical scholars.
    Al-Ghazali did not differ. Read the posts, then comment, akhi. Al-Ghazzali said, “Musical and stringed instruments are prohibited.” (Al-Wasit (7/350)

    As for the classical scholars who claimed ijmaa, was that ijmaa of the sahabah, or the ijmaa of scholars after that they were claiming?
    You could say Ijma` of Sahabah and all scholars who were fully acquainted with the issue from A-Z. Those who were not fully acquainted are not taken into account.

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    Default Re: (Music) How accurate is the claim that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    Imam John Ederer from Suhaib Webb's website said that the hadith is weak.

    Read his article, then what I wrote, and you will understand.
    Ok, I found the article, it is here Regarding the Permissibility of Music

    Yes, he is right about those "some" scholars who considered it weak due to the defect mentioned as I showed you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post



    There are no scholars before the 5th century who made it lawful, except, as al-Qurtubi said, some extremist Sufis. There's your proof.
    This is another factually incorrect statement. I don't know why brothers make statements without even doing a study into the subject.

    Do you know Ibn Tahir al-Qaysarani (d. 507 AH) and then i quoted also tarikh of ibn al-Khuthayma, Yusuf al-Majishoon ; But we will not go into this who said Yes or No, rather why they said Yes or No is the focus of this discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    There are honestly so many evidences from Qur'an, Sunnah, statements of the Sahabah (which is Hujjah to the Hanbalis and Malikis, I believe), and Ijma`.
    Can you provide Authentic statements with their isnad and also where in Quran it says about Musical instruments which has been missed by all these scholars - both who are pro and against.

    do you consider Daff to be part of musical instrument ? so is Daff also haram ?



    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    Al-Ghazali did not differ. Read the posts, then comment, akhi. Al-Ghazzali said, “Musical and stringed instruments are prohibited.” (Al-Wasit (7/350)
    Is that the final book of al-Ghazali ? because then we can know al-Ghazali's final opinion, as scholars do change their opinions. Wasit was first or Ihya was first. this will confirm if Ghazali permitted first then later prohibited or could be the other way around if wasit is first and ihya is after it. Can you please comment on this brother.


    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Ubaida View Post
    You could say Ijma` of Sahabah and all scholars who were fully acquainted with the issue from A-Z. Those who were not fully acquainted are not taken into account.
    how do you know if someone was fully acquainted or not ?



    and what about the tadlis and lies, I am waiting for you to point it out as you said "Read it carefully. Lots of Tadlis and lies in what he says."

    Please point out the specific lies and tadlis with supporting evidence. I like to put that in my study too.
    Last edited by Abu Ashari; 13th May 2014 at 05:52 AM.

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