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Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

This is a discussion on Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab" within the Islamic Law forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; The Statement "If the Hadith is Authentic, that is my Madhhab" One of the most misunderstood statements of Imm al-Shfi ...

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    Default Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    The Statement "If the Hadith is Authentic, that is my Madhhab"

    One of the most misunderstood statements of Imm al-Shfi is his famous phrase: When the authenticity of the hadth is established, that is my madhhab. The Ulema of the School explained, contrary to the populist approaches of Salafs, that this principle addresses the jurists who are capable of sifting the abrogating and sound hadths from the abrogated and unsound ones as well as extract the rulings from their collective evidence according to the principles of the Law and those of the Arabic language. [1] Al-Nawaw said:

    What Imm al-Shfi said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahh hadth should say This is the madhhab of al-Shfi, applying the purely external or apparent meaning of his statement. What he said most certainly applies only to such a person as has the rank of ijtihd in the madhhab. It is a condition for such a person that he be firmly convinced that either Imm al-Shfi was unaware of this hadth or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having researched all the books of al-Shfi and similar other books of the companions of al-Shfi, those who took knowledge from him and others similar to them. This is indeed a difficult condition to fulfill. Few are those who measure upto this standard in our times. [2]

    What we have explained has been made conditional because Imm al-Shfi had abandoned acting purely on the external meaning of many hadths, which he declared and knew. However, he established proofs for criticism of the hadth or its abrogation or specific circumstances or interpretation and so forth. Shaykh Abu Amr [Ibn al-Salh] said: It is no trivial matter to act according to the apparent meaning of what Imm al-Shfi said. For it is not permissible for every faqh let alone a layman (mm) to act independently with what he takes to be a proof from the hadth Therefore, whoever among the Shfis finds a hadth that contradicts his School must examine whether he is absolutely accomplished in all the disciplines of ijtihd, or in that particular topic, or specific question. [If he is,] then he has the right to apply it independently. If he is not, but finds that contravening the hadth bears too heavily upon himafter having researched it and found no justification for contravening itthen he may apply it if another independent Imm other than al-Shfi applies it. This is a good excuse for him to leave the madhhab of his Imm in such a case. [3]

    [1] See, in particular, Shaykh al-Islm Taq al-Dn al-Subks Man Qawl al-Imm al-Muttalib Idh Sahha al-Hadthu Fahuwa Madhhab; Ibn al-Salhs Adab al-Muft wa al-Mustaft; and the first volume of al-Nawaws al-Majm.

    [2] I.e. al-Nawaws times, a fortiori ours. Among those who lived in al-Nawaws century were al-Fakhr al-Rz, Ibn al-Salh, al-Mundhir, Ibn Abd al-Salm, al-Qurtub, Ibn al-Munayyir, Ibn al-Qattn, al- Diy al-Maqdis, Ibn Qudma, and Ibn Daqq al-d!

    [3] Al-Nawaw, al-Majm Sharh al-Muhadhdhab (1:64), citing Ibn al-Salhs Fatw wa Masil (1:54, 1:58-59). Cf. al-Tahnaw, Il al-Sunan (2:290-291).
    "The rope of Allah lies in seeking Knowledge from its scholars.
    This is a matter which many have abandoned, how can Allah help a people who have abandoned its scholars?
    is it known in history that Allah ever helped a people who abandoned their prophets?"

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    Senior Member AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    i wonder when these four imams (plus there were many others) gave their opinions, did they know it was going to be a source of differentiation between muslims? did they think they were establishing four distinct schools of thought, or were they just scholars who gave their opinion and when they gave that opinion they said, if you see something better, then take it

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    i wonder when these four imams (plus there were many others) gave their opinions, did they know it was going to be a source of differentiation between muslims? did they think they were establishing four distinct schools of thought, or were they just scholars who gave their opinion and when they gave that opinion they said, if you see something better, then take it
    These scholars never intended to create such catastrophic groups calling themselves Mathhaahib and attributing to the scholars. It was those who came afterward that actually started these schools, so in a way you can say the scholars are in fact under continuous slander whenever someone claims to follow a Mathhab

    Imagine using principles derived by a person who never met Rasooolullaah nor was he receiving Wahi, and making them a criteria of approaching the Deen

    Their fiqh changed according to the ahadeeth they came to know, there was never blind bigotry as you see today, so the concept of 'Ahl ul-Hadeeth' is correct, just not the sectarian groups that call themselves with that name
    Last edited by Butterknife al-Batil; 1st January 2011 at 03:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Back then pretty much every scholar had his own madhab, it was all about ijtihad then and then students used their principles of ijtihaad. From the hundreds or thousands of madhabs it just turned out that the 4 we know of survived.

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    did they know it was going to be a source of differentiation between muslims?
    the difference was present at their time itself. Not that the differences raised later their death.
    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    if you see something better, then take it
    those who are capable of ijtehad, they do so anyway. And laymen arent able to see generally better than a mujtahid,because laymen arent aware about any usool at all.

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    akhi,

    just as a layman cannot make hukm, but he must also live life. one scholar says touching a woman breaks your wudu, another says not, so he reads a hadith and it says the prophet touched his wife and it did not break his wudu, why can he not then take that as an example? why does he have to know the legalistic differentiations to accept what he just read with his own eyes in a saheeh collection?

    this is what turns people away from madh'hab because it actually divorces a man from thinking and commands him to just blindly accept someone else's decision

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    akhi,

    just as a layman cannot make hukm, but he must also live life. one scholar says touching a woman breaks your wudu, another says not, so he reads a hadith and it says the prophet touched his wife and it did not break his wudu, why can he not then take that as an example? why does he have to know the legalistic differentiations to accept what he just read with his own eyes in a saheeh collection?

    this is what turns people away from madh'hab because it actually divorces a man from thinking and commands him to just blindly accept someone else's decision
    Assalamu alaykum dear brother, i think you are misunderstanding the concept here,

    no one is saying reject a hadith, but as brother junaid said, he the person is not a mujtahid, he does not know the hadith wether it is abrogated or not, wether it is general or not,wether it is restricted, specific, wether it is the only hadith on the matter or wether there is more evidences from the Quran or other Hadiths, he the layman probably does not even know arabic. this is why he needs to know the fiqhi rulings concerning the hadith, and it is not as easy as if a hadith is sahih then take it.

    however having said that, if he can tell clearly that his madhab has gone against a clear ruling or ijma then that is when he needs to abandon that particular ruling of his madhab.

    or also if he realises that his madhab did not come across that particular hadith.

    everyone from the time of the companions to the salaf, did taqlid of someone else, unless they themselves were mujtahids.

    and as many of the salaf stated, to beware of a layman being a self mujtahid (iin other words try and evaluate things yourself or try looking into the evidences yourself), as this would lead a person to lack of fiqh and he would tend to take things literally, and also it would lead him into making halal into haram and vice versa. and this is why they would burn their books in fear of people taking evrything they say literally and not understanding a matter.

    tell me, it is impossible to say so and so madhab or scholar went against a hadith, they may have made ta'weel of the hadith and thereby misinterpretated it, but non of the salaf, if they knew a hadith was sahih would ever reject it.

    Allahu Alim
    Last edited by Abdul-Qadir; 1st January 2011 at 05:38 PM.
    "The rope of Allah lies in seeking Knowledge from its scholars.
    This is a matter which many have abandoned, how can Allah help a people who have abandoned its scholars?
    is it known in history that Allah ever helped a people who abandoned their prophets?"

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    akhi,

    i am not saying it is the layman to make any hukum, i am saying that if i follow one madhhab and it says touching a woman breaks the fast or wudu, and then i read where the prophet touched a woman and still fasted or kept wudu, and this has not been abrogated by anyone, then why am i bound to a madhhab instead of following a hadith that is clear and accepted by other muslims?

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    akhi,

    i am not saying it is the layman to make any hukum, i am saying that if i follow one madhhab and it says touching a woman breaks the fast or wudu, and then i read where the prophet touched a woman and still fasted or kept wudu, and this has not been abrogated by anyone, then why am i bound to a madhhab instead of following a hadith that is clear and accepted by other muslims?

    well that is what Imam Nawawi was saying, that IF the hadith a person reads and it contradicts his madhab, then he should try and see how his madhab explained/understood this hadith, if he is still not convinced on the answer he recieves from his madhab, he can act upon the hadith ON A CONDITION, that another scholar or madhab has acted upon this hadith.

    what however is CONDEMING, is laypeople by reading one hadith or picking up bukhari, sees many ahadiths which are sahih, he then tries to act upon these hadiths, whilst not knowing that particular hadith and its fiqhi ruling.

    another thing you have to understand is that a person may see a hadith and he only understands it literally, when the hadith itself is not intended literally, so if he makes it literal, he has completely changed the meaning of what was actually intended by Allah and His Messenger. and vice versa, a hadith maybe intended literal, but the person makes qiyas or ta'weel on the hadith and has changed its intended meaning completely, so he has changed what Allah and His Messenger has intended.

    and this process is difficult or literally impossible for a layman to know what was intended By Allah and His Messenger, that is why we have scholars.

    i give yo an example of this:

    "Shafis say that one should pray eid salah in masjid and not in open space (musallah)."


    now there argument is strong, the fact that the Messenger did it does not necessarily prove it is a sunnah, and they explain the actions of The Messenger as saying the population was soo large at the time of eid, that the Messenger had to do it out in open field, it was impossible for him to gather everyon einside the masjid.

    now this is their understanding of the ahadiths that speak about praying outside.

    so what do you say to that? how do you prove them wrong?

    now you have to now try and prove the actions were specifically intended by the Messenger, to intentionally establish it as a sunnah.

    do you think you can do that?

    so my whole point being is that sometimes one needs to know wether a particular hadith is intended specifically to establish a sunnah or was there a reason behind it.

    and that is why our understanding is not what judges what is right and what is wrong. (unless one has reached a certain level or the matter is clear)
    "The rope of Allah lies in seeking Knowledge from its scholars.
    This is a matter which many have abandoned, how can Allah help a people who have abandoned its scholars?
    is it known in history that Allah ever helped a people who abandoned their prophets?"

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    Default Re: Salafi Movement on Misunderstanding the Phrase "When A Hadith Is Sahih That Is My Madhab"

    Imam al-Nawawi said:

    "Any Shafii who finds a hadith going against his madhhab should look into the matter [as follows]: If he possesses the complete requirements of ijtihad without restriction, or in that chapter, or [even] in that point [alone], he may independently practice upon [the hadith]. If he does not [possess it] and finds it difficult to go against the hadith, and his search for a valid explanation of the hadith [within his madhhab] does not provide a convincing solution, then he may practice upon the hadith with one condition, which is that another independent [mujtahid] imam other than al-Shafii should have practiced upon it. This would then be a valid pretext for him to leave the madhhab of his imam."


    [Al-Majmu (1/136)]
    "The rope of Allah lies in seeking Knowledge from its scholars.
    This is a matter which many have abandoned, how can Allah help a people who have abandoned its scholars?
    is it known in history that Allah ever helped a people who abandoned their prophets?"

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