Time for Asr Salat (Proof of Hanafi)

[Nooruddeen]

Are you the same guy who once said:


And with that, I rest my case.

HH. Out

Yes I did say that and what is the problem with it? Don't you know the diff between matn and ma'ana?

Now please can you show me a single hadeeth which clearly unequivocally says that Asr is prayer at one-shadow length time? And please explain why Jibreel led the prayer at mithlayn at the very end of the hadeeth which ghair muqallid love to quote?

[Harris Hammam]

Yes I did say that and what is the problem with it? Don't you know the diff between matn and ma'ana?

Let the jokes begin! Where are justabro and Abu Adam?

Now please can you show me a single hadeeth which clearly unequivocally says that Asr is prayer at one-shadow length time? And please explain why Jibreel led the prayer at mithlayn at the very end of the hadeeth which ghair muqallid love to quote?

1. Why are you asking me? I prefer Abu Hanifah's opinion

2. Why are you getting all passionate over a fiqhi issue?

3. You make it out as if the one-Mithl opinion is exclusive to ghayir muqallids, when in fact it is the opinion of Abu Yusuf, Muhammad, Malik, al-Shafi'i and Ahmed bin Hanbal.

[Nooruddeen]

Let the jokes begin! Where are justabro and Abu Adam?


1. Why are you asking me? I prefer Abu Hanifah's opinion

2. Why are you getting all passionate over a fiqhi issue?

3. You make it out as if the one-Mithl opinion is exclusive to ghayir muqallids, when in fact it is the opinion of Abu Yusuf, Muhammad, Malik, al-Shafi'i and Ahmed bin Hanbal.

1. Because you are the one who started debating me, rather pointlessly, when in fact we are following the same opinion.

2. Because all I did was paste a booklet for the benefit of our hanafi brothers so they can give replied to the standard ghair muqallid bigotry against our madhhab, but the same old characters bombard such a beautiful thread with counter-arguments and controversy when they should just leave it alone and accept the hanafi viewpoint as a valid viewpoint.

3. The very beginning of the articles I pasted made it clear that the point is not to discredit one mithl viewpoint, but rather to defend mithlayn viewpoint against ghair muqallideen allegations.

[Harris Hammam]

1. Because you are the one who started debating me, rather pointlessly, when in fact we are following the same opinion.

A person who makes an imaginary distinction between qat'ee al-ma'naa and qat'ee al-dalaalah deserves to be debated.

2. Because all I did was paste a booklet for the benefit of our hanafi brothers so they can give replied to the standard ghair muqallid bigotry against our madhhab, but the same old characters bombard such a beautiful thread with counter-arguments and controversy when they should just leave it alone and accept the hanafi viewpoint as a valid viewpoint.

1. You copied and slapped this thread onto IA.

2. Look around you - WHERE is the ghayr muqallid bigotry on this thread, or on this forum for that matter, against this particular Hanafi opinion?

3. This is not a beautiful thread. YOU, however, are the beautiful member of IA:
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/215690-post268.html

Hanafi law is not in need of defence by the likes of you, against bigots who are only in your imagination.

And if you are referring to the Pakistani ghayr muqallids, then know that the Hanafis who debate with them are EQUALLY bigoted and shallow-minded.

BTW, do you know that Maualan Sarfaraz Khan Safdar passed away? Do you now know who he is? Will you join me in asking for the mercy of Allah to be showered on him?

[AbuNaim]

The upshot for the Hanafis in regard of ihtiyaat is that to pray Zuhr before 1 lenght shadow and Asr after 2 lenght shadow. In such case each prayer is prayed according to consensus of all imaams on time.

[Pluma]

I read your text Noor, and it's full of (edited).

Something really strange is that you claim that during all those centuries, the major part of the umma was praying 'ASr at the wrong moment.

The strangest thing is that the prophet S., according to you, did not even show us clearly what was the time for the best of the prayers.

Or maybe the strangest if when Ibn Hajar says about some of your argument that we should not even answer to them because of their weakness and that you consider it to be a qaT'i incredible argument in favor of your position.

[Ehtesaab]

...This particular Hadith which is their strongest daleel(proof) is of the Hasan cate gory. Ahaadith of this category are valid as basis by the Ahnaaf. But it devolves on Salafis who are so vociferous in their demand for Saheeh and Sareeh Ahaadith to produce such narrations. Presentation of narrations of a lesser category than Saheeh is improper for them...

Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong, but the hadeeth of Jibreel (as) is mutawatir. And as such, it is beyond the categorization into sahih or da'eef, accepted or rejected. And as such also, it has precedence over any other hadeeth (mentioned in Nooruddeen's post) unless it is of the same mutawatir level. Any newbie in hanafi Usul-ul-Fiqh knows that. The argument above seems a bit illogical.
Sheikh Taqi Uthmani said that the ahadeeth used by the ahnaaf in this matter cannot surpass the hadeeth of Jibreel (as). He at least was logical.

And before him Sheikh al-Nimawi said in Athar-us-Sunnan:

و في استدالال بها ابحاث و اني لم اجد حديثا صريحا صحيحا او ضعيفا يدل علي ان وقت الظهر الي ان يصير الظل مثليه و عن الامام ابي حنيفة فيه قولان (اثار السنن)

...They have been criticized (ahadeeth used by the ahnaaf). And I have not come across any hadeeth, authentic or weak, clearly stating that the time for Zuhr lasts until the second mithl. And there are two narrations from imam abu Haneefah (ra) in this issue. (Athar-us-Sunnan).
This is also the view adopted in al-Durr al-Mukhtar.

Anyway, I'm not interested in debating who's right or who's wrong. What I find interesting is that there are more than 2 narrations from abu Haneefah (ra). As-Sarkhasi said in al-Mabsoot:

وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي آخِرِ وَقْتِ الظُّهْرِ فَعِنْدَهُمَا إذَا صَارَ ظِلُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ مِثْلَهُ خَرَجَ وَقْتُ الظُّهْرِ وَدَخَلَ وَقْتُ الْعَصْرِ وَهُوَ رِوَايَةُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ رَحِمَهُمَا اللَّهُ تَعَالَى وَإِنْ لَمْ يَذْكُرْهُ فِي الْكِتَابِ نَصًّا فِي خُرُوجِ وَقْتِ الظُّهْرِ . وَرَوَى أَبُو يُوسُفَ عَنْ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ رَحِمَهُمَا اللَّهُ تَعَالَى أَنَّهُ لَا يَخْرُجُ وَقْتُ الظُّهْرِ حَتَّى يَصِيرَ الظِّلُّ قَامَتَيْنِ وَرَوَى الْحَسَنُ عَنْ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ رَحِمَهُمَا اللَّهُ تَعَالَى أَنَّهُ إذَا صَارَ الظِّلُّ قَامَةً يَخْرُجُ وَقْتُ الظُّهْرِ وَلَا يَدْخُلُ وَقْتُ الْعَصْرِ حَتَّى يَصِيرَ الظِّلُّ قَامَتَيْنِ وَبَيْنَهُمَا وَقْتٌ مُهْمَلٌ وَهُوَ الَّذِي تُسَمِّيهِ النَّاسُ بَيْنَ الصَّلَاتَيْنِ ، كَمَا أَنَّ بَيْنَ الْفَجْرِ وَالظُّهْرِ وَقْتًا مُهْمَلًا (المبسوط, للسرخسي)

They differed regarding the end of Zuhar: Muhammad and abu Yusuf said it ends at first mithl, and this is abu Haneefah's view according to Muhammad's narration... Abu Yusuf narrated from abu Haneefah that it doesn't end until the second mithl. According to Hasan (bin Ziad)'s narration the time of Zuhar ends at the first mithl but 'Asr time does not begin until the second mithl, and between the two there is an 'unspecified' (?) muhmal period... (al-Mabsoot).

Would be much appreciated if someone who has studied hanafi usul-ul-fiqh could share their thoughts on the following:
1) What are the reasons for preferring abu Yusuf's narration from the imam? When most of the hanafi muhaqiqeen have preferred the view of the jamhoor. Or in other words, what principles in hanafi fiqh constitute the foundation of this view?
2) Based on the different narrations from the imam, would it be against the madhab to adopt the view of the Sahibain (abu Yusuf & Muhammad bin al-Hasan)?

[AbuNaim]

According to Hasan (bin Ziad)'s narration the time of Zuhar ends at the first mithl but 'Asr time does not begin until the second mithl, and between the two there is an 'unspecified' (?) muhmal period...
(al-Mabsoot)
Would be much appreciated if someone who has studied hanafi usul-ul-fiqh could share their thoughts on the following:
1) What are the reasons for preferring abu Yusuf's narration from the imam? When most of the hanafi muhaqiqeen have preferred the view of the jamhoor. Or in other words, what principles in hanafi fiqh constitute the foundation of this view?
2) Based on the different narrations from the imam, would it be against the madhab to adopt the view of the Sahibain (abu Yusuf & Muhammad bin al-Hasan)?

Like i said earlier;


The upshot for the Hanafis in regard of ihtiyaat is that to pray Zuhr before 1 lenght shadow and Asr after 2 lenght shadow. In such case each prayer is prayed according to consensus of all imaams on time.

[Ehtesaab]

Thank you brother AbuNaim for your precious time and reply.
But my questions are more about the controversial ''muhmal'' period, than the safe period before and after it; and are more about usul than dala'il.
Is there any particular reason or usul for preferring abu Yusuf's narration from the imam?

Like i said earlier;

The upshot for the Hanafis in regard of ihtiyaat is that to pray Zuhr before 1 lenght shadow and Asr after 2 lenght shadow. In such case each prayer is prayed according to consensus of all imaams on time.

This would be the third narration from imam abu Haneefah (ra), reported by Hasan bin Ziad. Although it seems to be relatively safer, it does have its pros and cons: neither Zuhar nor Asr would be valid if prayed during that ''muhmal'' period.

[Muslim_]

Thank you brother AbuNaim for your precious time and reply.
But my questions are more about the controversial ''muhmal'' period, than the safe period before and after it; and are more about usul than dala'il.
Is there any particular reason or usul for preferring abu Yusuf's narration from the imam?



This would be the third narration from imam abu Haneefah (ra), reported by Hasan bin Ziad. Although it seems to be relatively safer, it does have its pros and cons: neither Zuhar nor Asr would be valid if prayed during that ''muhmal'' period.

The Usul seems to be, but don't quote me, that if there are differing opinions from the Imams of the Mutaqaddimin, such as the three imams, then the ruling would be decided by the Ashab ut Tarjih (which would include Imam Quduri, 'Allama Marghinani and from the later scholars 'Allama Shurunbulali).


Abu Naiym you wanted someone who did raf', i found one hanafi scholar:
'Isam bin Yusuf al-Balkhi al-Hanafi died around 210 Hijri.