Conversions in Germany
This is a discussion on Conversions in Germany within the Global Affairs forums, part of the Main Topics category; Well, you can teach your child to follow the rules by beating it bloody every time it breaks them. Eventually, ...
- 28th November 2007 #21Well, you can teach your child to follow the rules by beating it bloody every time it breaks them. Eventually, child will learn and stop getting beaten, but that is still not good parenting.
No person can live without moral code. If he isn’t thought ethics by others, he will create his own. The corner stone of morality doesn’t have to be religion. In fact, as we can see, for most Europeans it isn’t.
Would you say that Germans are lying, cheating and deceitful nation? I wouldn’t.
Like I told you, one doesn’t have to find the source of morality in religion. I know many atheists and agnostics that are very moral people.
And BTW, lying is a crime if you caused someone harm by it. For instance, if financial damage has accrued as a result of your deliberate lying, the victim is entitled to full compensation of damages from you.
Do you honestly think that there is a website with all the possible statistics you can think of out there, so I can just give you a link to it?
Statistics that I’ve put up here I’ve mostly gathered from the articles of well-known media companies, such as BBC or Reuters, or from Eurostat, the EU statistics agency. If you doubt any of my data, you can simply use Google to check them out.
I would like to apologize to brother Suhaib for the on going rabble between me and morbius. I still look forward to those next pieces of info.
- 29th November 2007 #22
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
What you base this off of, I have no clue. All morality comes from, perhaps people may not follow religion but morality didn't emit from atheism and seeing as how we are going off assumptoins here, its not too far or hard to believe that the closer to religion you are the stronger the morals will be.
Every single person on this planet has its own moral code. If thieves rob someone you may think that they have no ethics, but they actually do, or how else would they be able to share the loot among them? So everybody has some sort of ethics, but they are not the same for all the people.
Some psychologists say that our sense of ethics, just like our humanity, comes from our parental instincts.
Other than brother Suhaib I do not know too many Germans very well, but they have the same trend apparent in north america regarding devorce so there is a level of deciet that does exist in society, I have seen some commercials of German TV which proudly display adultry as a fun thing.
Compare that to pre-Muhammad’s time Arabia when a women could starve if her husband divorces her and you’ll get a clearer picture.
I have met many atheists and agnostics who have no problem with lying or any other act of the sort
ersonally I could care less about these statistics, but since you have mentioned some of them, which are all European sources I would say list some non-European sources to avoid anny bias.
I would like to apologize to brother Suhaib for the on going rabble between me and morbius. I still look forward to those next pieces of info.
- 30th November 2007 #23
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Since Almighty God made all human beings swear to His Unique Divinity and Lordship when He created Adam (see Qur'an 7:172), this oath is printed on the human soul even before it enters the mother's foetus. So when a child is born, it has with it a natural belief in God.The Prophet Muhammad - the Final Messenger of God (saws), reported that God the Exalted said:
"I created My servants in the right religion, but the devils made them go astray."
The Messenger of God (saws), also said:
"Each child is born in a state of fitrah, but his parents make him a Jew or a Christian."
(Bukhari and Muslim)
This natural belief is called in Arabic the "fitrah". If a child were left alone, it would grow up aware of Almighty God in His Unity, but the pressures of their environment affect all children.
[Even richard dawkins on bbc news hardtalk said that 'our brain's are pre disposed to be RELIGIOUS' and admitted religion could not have came through darwinian natrual selection.......
Allah stated that He brought the descendants of Adam out of their fathers' loins, and they testified against themselves that Allah is their Lord and King and that there is no deity worthy of worship except Him. Allah created them on this Fitrah, or way,
and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord'' They said: "Yes!'') Therefore, Allah made them testify with themselves by circumstance and words. Testimony is sometimes given in words, such as,
(They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves.'') ﴿6:130﴾ At other times, testimony is given by the people themselves, such as Allah's statement,
It is not for the Mushrikin, (polytheists) to maintain the mosques of Allah, while they testify against their own selves of disbelief.) ﴿9:17﴾ This Ayah means that their disbelief testifies against them, not that they actually testify against themselves here. Another Ayah of this type is Allah's statement.
So we believe that everyone is born a believer until something will turn him away from the religion. The fight between truth and falsehood evil and good will always go on as it has been regardless of statistics...as for the amount of religious worshipers or believers there are then this also has been told...
Jaabir ibn `Abdullah was weeping and he said, “ I heard the Messenger saying, ‘Truly, people will enter the religion of Allah in great crowds and they will leave from it in great crowds.’ ”
Allaah [swt] also said in the Quraan that most of them will be disbelievers
And We have indeed sent a Messenger to every Ummah (community, nation) (saying): "Worship Allah (Alone), and reject the Taghout (all false deities) [Surah An NAhl 16:36]
If Allah had so willed, we would not have worshipped any but Him, [Surah An Nahl 16:35]
- 27th December 2007 #24
[Apologies for the long delay. There were just things which were of greater priority-SJ]:
When three Muslims - two Germans and one Turk - were arrested in Germany a few months ago, allegedly planning to carry out attacks on American occupation targets, we are reminded that wherever there is a large number of Muslim converts, there is bound to be some who will take up the call to defend the Deen and the Umma, joining the caravan of the Mujahideen who struggle in the Cause of Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala).
German history and culture provides ample evidence of martial traditions. Contrary to the Anglo-American-Jewish propaganda which has long painted Germany as an aggressive country, for a long time it was occupied by other powers and wars were fought by other nations on its soil. The first wars waged by Germany were those to retake lands inhabited by Germans but controlled by others.
There was a long tradition of a synthesis between militant radicalism and nationalism, a tradition reflected in such symbols as the German flag. Radical Germans on both sides of the political spectrum opposed the liberal democratic and bourgeois parliamentary system.
The radical German political organizations - Social Democrats, Communists, National Socialists, National Bolsheviks, Conservative Revolution - all had street activists or armed groups. This is unlike the Western countries, where the system is such that political parties would not operate in such a blatantly militant fashion.
German strategists defined their country as an armed bulwark against both capitalism and Bolshevism, one that sought to bring down the aggression of the imperialist powers. Numerous philosophers rallied against the ills of this modern world, including its rampant materialist world-view and the decadence of modern societies. Martin Heidegger called for a "revolutionary resolve".
With such a long tradition, it is only natural many Germans would find the perfect and fullest conclusion of those values they had already held, within the Deen of Islam and its pristine social-revolutionary appeal. Germans found that Muslims around the world were facing the same enemies who had subjugated their own homeland.
I have traced at least six instances of Germans involving themselves in the struggles of Muslim countries, beginning with the Moroccan Rif rebellion against French domination in the 1920s, to the 1948 Palestinian Al-Nakhba, to the Algerian FLN liberation struggle, to the ongoing struggle against Zionism, to supporting Iraq during the First Gulf War, and finally the current conflict and so-called "War on Terrorism".
From 1921 to 1926, Abd al-Krim led a revolt of mountain Berber tribes against a combined force of French and Spanish colonial armies. Abd al-Krim (1882-1963), who was arrested and detained during World War I for his pro-German sympathies, was regarded as a hero in a Germany whose western region was still occupied by France, which also plundered its resources for the benefit of the French economy:
"Our nation was degraded then in the same manner in which the Islamic peoples are today. The Versailles Diktat was thrust down our throats. My generation took comfort in Abd el-Krim's victories in the Rif war against the French and the Spaniards at the beginning of the twenties.
"I remember how my mother used to rave about the courage of Abd el-Krim. He was very popular in the twenties in the rest that remained of Germany, that was humiliated by the French. Later, I was privileged to meet personally that great Arab hero, and I was honored with his friendship.
"The German people sees from his life story and from his tragedy that he has something in common with the fate of the Palestinians and the Muslims" ("Interview with General Otto Ernst Remer," Al-Shaab, Cairo, July 23, 1993).
Numerous German members of the French Foreign Legion deserted and decided to help the cause of the Moroccan resistance. I have no information about whether all of them converted to Islam, but it is a fact that their expertise was cultivated by Abd el-Krim and that these Germans distinguished themselves in battle.
French General Hubert Lyautey feared mass desertions of German members in the Legion, and cited an incident in 1908 when fifty German deserters hijacked a French train carrying artillery in Morocco. World War I and the Rif rebellion increased the number of German desertions:
"Unlike the prewar years, legionnaires now began to desert in small but significant numbers to the dissident Moroccan tribes. This appears to have been a new phenomenon, not a prolongation of desertion during the war....
"Albert Bartels, a German businessman living in Rabat in 1914, claimed to have escaped internment and fought the French through the war at the head of various native tribes with the aid of three German deserters from the Legion. On February 12, 1921, Major de Corta reported that of around twenty-five Legion deserters living with the marauding tribes in the Tafilalt in southeastern Morocco, five had been there since the war" (Douglas Porch, The French Foreign Legion, New York: HarperCollins, 1991, pp. 392-393).
Many Germans, encountering arrogance and chauvinism from the French officers, began to make efforts to contact the Rif Mujahideen and overtake their barracks. Germans already living and fighting with the tribes, led these efforts to persuade other legionnaires to desert. The effect was such that the French withdrew the Legion from the front.
An intelligent and skilled leader, Abd el-Krim welcomed nearly fifty German deserters to his forces and installed them as machine-gunners or in some cases, commanders. He printed leaflets in German:
"Why do you fight with the French? Abd el-Krim means freedom. Come into the Rif with your arms, and if you do not want to continue fighting, you will be repatriated through Tangier. Lt. Klems will help you. At Ajdir, we make war the modern way, and you, Germans, will understand. You have been with the French for adventure....Abd el-Krim fights for an ideal, to defend his native land" (Rudyers Pryne, War in Morocco, Tangier: 1927, p. 217).
Josef Otto Klems, born in the Rhineland, joined the Foreign Legion due to his financial difficulties and rose to become a lieutenant. The epiphany came in Morocco in 1920, when a drunken French officer called him a "Boche" (a derogatory French word meaning German). Klems attacked him and fled before the guards could arrest him.
The Moroccans treated him as a captive at first but quickly came to recognize his hatred for the French. He converted to Islam and married the daughter of a sharif (descendant of the Prophet). Klems undertook his first missions disguised in his French uniform, which he used to infiltrate French barracks and capture weapons. He soon became known as the infamous "El-Hadj Alemán".
Klems arose to become Chief of Staff to Abd el-Krim. Klems told an American journalist: "My son, I hope....will never learn the evil ways of what you call civilization....The only world fit for a man to live in is the Mohammedan [sic] world" ("Caid El-Hadj," Time Magazine, February 21, 1927, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...51593,00.html).
After the defeat of Abd el-Krim and his own capture by the French, Klems asked that he too be sent to exile with the Rif leader to Réunion but was instead executed in 1927 as a deserter from the Legion. There was a mysterious aura which surrounded him: Klems was the subject of an operetta by Romberg, "The Desert Song," for example.
Nevertheless, there were even then Germans who continued to resist alongside some Moroccan tribes. As late as the seizure of the Jabal Sagho in 1933, Jean Martin wrote that deserters shouted insults in German at the attacking legionnaires:
"There were numerous deserters among these last dissidents, gone over to the enemy several years earlier, some thirty years ago, who could not surrender, knowing full well that they would be executed. They were the most ferocious of these last rebels. We still found them in the Atlas during the summer" (Jean Martin, Je suis un légionnaire, Paris: Fayard, 1938, p. 151).
History demonstrates like elsewhere, the Jews were originally welcomed in Germany. But an arrogant sector of the Jewish people sought to increase their power in the country which hosted them. This element operated through the twin forces of usurious exploitation and destructive revolution. (In Der Judenstaat, Theodor Herzl the founder of political Zionism, threatened both "revolution from the bottom" and the "power of the purse" from above).
As the Zionists are concerned, the very moment Hitler took power the Jewish organizations instituted a boycott of Germany, which was often accompanied with clear genocidal tones. Both branches of Zionism were involved in this. Chaim Weizmann expressed the allegiance of the Zionist movement for Britain in a possible war against Germany. His rival Vladimir Jabotinsky called for a "holy war" against Germany as early as 1934.
The events of the war and those following them led many Germans to view their position as being tied with the Arabs against Zionism. Many German officials and SS officers were on the run from the kangaroo courts set up by the victors, and some of these made their way to the Arab world. As I had earlier demonstrated, many converted to Islam and took up military or bureaucratic positions in Egypt and Syria.
It should then be no surprise to learn that they actively participated in the battle against Zionism. The majority made their way to the Palestinian irregular forces, mostly to the forces of Mohammad Amin al-Husseini or those of Fawzi al-Qawukji, both of whom had lived in Germany during the war. Here is one contemporary account of the Zionist capture of a city:
"After all-night fighting, Haganah, the Jewish militia, virtually seized control of the city, and issued surrender terms to the Arab national committee.
"One of the terms demanded surrender of all German nazis in the Arab forces. That such a demand should be made on an official basis and given such wide publicity indicates how vastly conditions have changed in Palestine within the past few weeks.
"Little more than a month ago, this correspondent was in Palestine and stumbled across the story of the erstwhile members of Adolf Hitler's Wehrmacht who were filtering into the Holy Land to help the Arabs fight the Jews....
"Later I was shown papers which the Haganah leaders said have been taken from the bodies of Germans slain in border skirmishes. Also there were photographs of bodies, in Arab tribal clothes, which still carried the old Hitler S.S. elite troop tattoos" ("Arabs Adopt Nazi Tactics," Mansfield News Journal, Ohio, April 25, 1948).
The victories of the Allied powers and Soviets forced thousands of Germans and others to continue the anti-Zionist/Capitalist struggle in Palestine. These included former German SS officers, Bosnians fleeing from the Communist rule of Tito, and Caucasus Muslims fleeing from the atrocities of Stalin, all of whom joined either Qawukji or Husseini:
"Most of his 'volunteers' now actually were mercenaries from Syria, combined with a scattering of Yugoslav Moslems, Circassians from the Caucasus, a few Poles from the Anders Army, some German SS veterans, and a few Spanish Falangists" (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel, From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1976, p. 299).
As I have mentioned earlier, a number of German Waffen-SS veterans settled in Egypt, where they helped to train Palestinian resistance Mujahideen. Walter Baumann (Ali Ben Khader) and Wilhelm Börner (Ali Ben Keshir) became instructors with the Palestine Liberation Front, an early Palestinian resistance group.
[To be continued soon, insha'Allah....]
- 30th December 2007 #25
The Algerian resistance struggle (1954-1962) against French imperialism, earned the admiration of many Germans who could not forget their own humiliation at the hands of France. The French old-guard reactionaries were not only arch-imperialists, but also fanatical Germanophobes.
The post-war French policy - instituted by such men as the Jewish Pierre Mendes-France or the self-professed Christian Zionist Guy Mollet - was imperialist and likewise retained its hatred of all things German. It is no accident that the statesman, Charles de Gaulle, broke from these reactionary policies, abandoning French imperialism and establishing close ties with Germany.
Many Germans served in the French Foreign Legion, as the immediate post-war environment in their homeland denied them many opportunities. We do know that like the Rif rebellion, some of these German legionnaires defected to the side of the resistance. This was noted earlier in a letter written by Omar Amin von Leers:
"One thing is clear - more and more patriot[ic] Germans join the great Arab revolution against beastly imperialism. In Algeria half a company of German soldiers, dragging with them two French officers and two non-commissioned officers, have cut their throats in the view of the Algerian revolutionaries and have gone on the side of the Algerians and have embraced Islam. That is good!" (Quoted in Kevin Coogan, Dreamer of the Day: Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist International, New York: Autonomedia, 1999, p. 382).
The Algerian war split the nationalist/"Fascist" movement in Europe into two camps. Leaders of the OAS (Secret Army Organization) included some Vichy collaborators, who followed reactionary imperialist concerns. On the other hand, German Waffen-SS veterans and activists openly supported the FLN. The leader of Jeune Europe, Jean-François Thiriart, defined true European interests as firm opposition to imperialism. These elements later coalesced around the European New Right (Martin Lee, The Beast Reawakens, Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1997, p. 146).
"[Swiss banker and activist François] Genoud began to see Egypt as a base for the anti-French FLN independence movement in Algeria. He worked in Tangier with an ex-SS officer named Hans Reichenberg to create the Arabo-Afrika import-export company, which supplied the FLN with weapons. Arabo-Afrika was actually a cover enterprise established by Werner Naumann's network, and included Genoud's friend Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. In Damascus, General Otto Remer, Ernst-Wilhelm Springer, and an ex-SS captain an RSHA operative named Alois Brunner created another gun-running operation, the Orient Trading Company (OTRACO), to ship arms to the FLN militants" (Coogan, op. cit., p. 585).
With the help of Remer and other German military and technical advisers, who viewed their own primary enemies as Zionism and Atlantic finance-imperialism, Egypt developed a support base for North African resistance groups fighting against France as well as anti-British movements in Aden and the Mau Mau insurgency in Kenya (ibid., p. 382).
Remer served as the front-man for German arms-traffickers like Springer and Brunner, who would help to supply weapons for the FLN. Mohammad Said, a former SS volunteer who had fought in the Handschar Division, assisted the Algerian revolution and commanded FLN Mujahideen operations near the Tunisian border (Lee, op. cit., pp. 140-141).
After the liberation of Algeria, the focus of the German anti-imperialist activists became once again the Palestinian struggle against Zionism. These groups were secularist, nationalist or Marxist, so their struggle was not a pure Jihad based on Islamic principles, although it was Islamic in the sense that it sought to liberate a sacred Muslim land (Bayt al-Maqdis).
Due to their bankrupt ideologies and the fact that only Islam could mobilize the masses to fight honorably and shed martyr's blood for a higher cause, these groups were forced to appeal to Islam to varying degrees. As noted by Shaykh Abdullah Azzam Shaheed (rahimahullah), Fatah was a step in the right direction except for its secularist ideology. What was needed was a purely Islamic resistance, which has come in the form of Hamas.
The famed paratrooper, Otto Skorzeny, lended his expertise to train Palestinian commandoes. In 1969, Fatah recruited two former SS officers, Erich Altern (Ali Bella) and Willy Berner, as instructors. The former SS officer, Johann Schuller, helped to secure European arms to Fatah. Members of a small German nationalist group, Hoffmann-Wehrsportgruppe, attempted to forge an operational alliance with the Palestinian resistance.
The German youth group Bund Heimattreuer Jugend (League of Patriotic Youth) competed with the New Left student groups in recruiting young Germans to serve with the Palestinians. In 1968, it announced the creation of Hilfskorp Arabien (Auxiliary Corps Arabia): "You too must do your share in restoring, through hard personal action, the good German name" (Der neue Aufbruch, no. 1, 1968).
Karl von Kyna, a young German rightist mercenary, died during a Palestinian commando raid in September 1967. A Belgian member of Jeune Europe, Robert Courdroy, also died in a Palestinian commando raid in the late 1960s. One German nationalist group called the Freikorps Adolf Hitler reportedly participated in the Black September Palestinian revolt in Jordan in 1970 (See George Michael, The Enemy of My Enemy: The Alarming Convergence of Militant Islam and the Extreme Right, University of Kansas Press, 2006).
The German activist Otto Albrecht was arrested in West Germany after it was discovered he possessed PLO identity papers and $1.2 million to purchase weapons. Karl-Heinz Hoffmann, accused of killing "Israeli" publisher Shlomo Levin and the carrying out the Oktoberfest bombing on September 26, 1980, maintained close ties with the PLO and moved his paramilitary training camp to Lebanon.
After attempted bombings against U.S. army bases in West Germany in 1982, rightist Odfried Hepp went underground and joined the Tunis-based Palestine Liberation Front. He was arrested while entering the Parisian apartment of a PLF member in June 1985. After the Achille Lauro incident, Hepp was included on the PLF's list of prisoners to be exchanged.
On the other side of the spectrum, German Marxist revolutionaries also joined the Palestinian cause. The Six-Day War turned most German Marxists against Zionism, which was now identified as a fascist, racist, apartheid ideology.
The first German Marxist revolutionary to join the Palestinian struggle was Dieter Kunzelmann, leader of the secret revolutionary group, the Black Rats/Tupamaros West Berlin. Sometime in late 1969, Kunzelmann made his way to a Palestinian training camp in Jordan: "Here (in Palestine) everything is very simple, the enemy is clear, its weapons are visible, solidarity does not need to be demanded, it arises of its own accord" (Agit 883, West Berlin, Autumn 1969).
On November 9, 1969, his group claimed responsibility for anti-Zionist slogans daubed onto Jewish monuments in West Berlin. One of these slogans was "Shalom and Napalm." In its press release, it announced: "True anti-fascism is clear and simple solidarity with the fighting Fedayeen of Palestine. For the Jews expelled by fascism have become fascists themselves, and, through collaboration with American capital, they want to eliminate the Palestinian people" (Bommi Baumann, Wie alles anfing, Frankfurt: 1976).
In June 1970, leading members of the German Marxist revolutionary Rote Armee Faktion (RAF), better known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang - Horst Mahler, Hans-Jürgen Bäcker, Monika Berberich, Brigitte Asdonk, Manfred Grashof, Petra Scheim - flew to Beirut and trained with Fatah. The RAF participated in several PLO operations throughout the 1970s.
The First Gulf War (1990-1991) occurred following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, but the actual reason for the American-led coalition was to suppress the power of an Arab country on behalf of Zionist interests. It also marked a ephocal turning-point after the Cold War, when the "Green Peril" replaced the Soviet threat. The symbolic gesture of the invasion was admitted by George H.W. Bush, who openly called the effort a "New World Order".
Jürgen Mohamed Gietler, a 42-year-old German businessman and Muslim convert, was formerly a German foreign ministry official who provided intelligence reports to an Iraqi military intelligence officer. These reports allowed Iraq to relocate missile launchers, replacing them with decoys before the American air raids. Other reports showed the placement of "Israeli" missile deployments. The information allowed the Iraqis to strike "Israel" with Scuds.
On August 28, 1990, Gietler was arrested for espionage after police found him walking out of the Foreign Ministry carrying a plastic bag containing 51 secret documents. He had been under surveillance since a June meeting with the Iraqi military attache to Germany. Gietler has been free since 1994, after which he worked as a businessman in Africa.
(See Alan Cowell, "German Ministry Official Spied for Iraq in Gulf War," The New York Times, November 18, 1997, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all)
On January 25, 1991, German nationalist Heinz Reisz appeared live on Hessian state television, proclaiming: "Long live the fight for Saddam Hussein, long live his people, long live their leader, God save the Arab people."
In early 1991, German National Socialist leader Michael Kühnen contacted the Iraqi embassy in Bonn and offered to train and equip a squadron of Nationalist mercenaries to assist Iraq and help repel the American invasion. Known as the Anti-Zionist League, its 500 members had little military value but were nevertheless a symbolic gesture.
While the members of the League included European activists of various nationalities, the largest element were Germans. A nationalist group called the Nation und Europa adopted the slogans: "Arabia for the Arabs" and "The whole of Germany for the Germans."
When German police arrested Kühnen in April, among the documents seized was a copy of a draft treaty between the Anti-Zionist League and the Government of Iraq. The manuscript defined the real interests of Germany as support for the Arab resistance and opposition to imperialism and Zionism.
The far-rightist Austrian Freedom Party (FPO) openly expressed its symphaties with Palestine and Iraq. Members of the FPO developed ties with Iraqi diplomats and took trips to Iraq so as to express their solidarity. The Iraqi-Austrian Association was created by FPO leader Jorg Haider and Iraqi-Austrian arms-dealer Abdul-Moneim Jebra.
[The last installment of this article on "German Mujahideen" will concern how many German activists reacted to the events of September 11th and the subsequent aggressions against Iraq and Afghanistan. I recognize the matter is controversial but should be considered in a broad context. I also intend to follow the stories of some German Muslims who were caught up by the declared "War on Terror" as our Islamic principles demand that we reject accusations leveled against our brothers and consider them in an honest manner, insha'Allah....]
- 18th January 2012 #26
Re: Conversions in Germany
Bumping this to read sometime in the future, in sha Allah.DISCLAIMER: Before you read any of my posts or accept any of my arguments, keep in mind that the above has been posted by a layman who, in most cases, would have been better off keeping silent.
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And [all] faces will be humbled before the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of existence.
And he who carries injustice will have failed. [20:111]