Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 210 of 241
Like Tree4Likes

The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

This is a discussion on The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir within the Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs forums, part of the Main Topics category; Originally Posted by Abu Kamel How do you deal with new problems? New problems? We are not talking about plastic ...

  1. #201
    Senior Member Abu_Jannah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,597

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post

    How do you deal with new problems?
    New problems?
    We are not talking about plastic surgery or organ donation here.

    We are talking about a situation where the Khilafah is absent. This is a situation that was possible from the beginning.
    If you open a book a Fiqh, you will find plenty of weird and awkward scenarios that a Muslim could face and the answer is given to those situations.
    How about when a the Khilafah is absent?
    And not to mention the Fard aspect of it that was strangely discovered not so long time ago.

  2. #202
    Senior Member Mansoor Ali's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Woodford Bridge, Essex, UK
    Age
    44
    Posts
    3,387

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    I don't think you understand evidence because you would not continue to make such statements.
    HT is a party that's founded upon misguidance. Concerning the matters related to 'aqeeda they are known to have said nothing should be accepted except that which conforms to the intellenct. They also disbelieve in those things prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam, believed in, such as the punishment of the grave and the dajjaal or antichrist. They're a group which has no concern for having the right beliefs, but they're full of concern for politics. One of their members was asked a long time ago why they don't have schools for memorizing the quraan, and that person said he doesn't want to produce dervishes. HT are people Muslims must stay away from, they misinterpret texts and reject some beliefs of Islaam.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Mansoor Ali For This Useful Post:
    al-suyuufi (19th August 2012)

  4. #203
    A.H
    A.H is offline
    Ali Harfouch A.H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    819

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Jannah View Post
    New problems?
    We are not talking about plastic surgery or organ donation here.

    We are talking about a situation where the Khilafah is absent. This is a situation that was possible from the beginning.
    If you open a book a Fiqh, you will find plenty of weird and awkward scenarios that a Muslim could face and the answer is given to those situations.
    How about when a the Khilafah is absent?
    And not to mention the Fard aspect of it that was strangely discovered not so long time ago.
    Not really akhee, especially considering the radical transformation of the Muslim world through colonialism and the imposition of nation-states. With all due respect, I think that statement is far from accurate.

    Can you name a few books or sources?
    حزب التحرير - ولاية لبنان

    New Civilisation

    [an online political journal which provides a unique source of insight and critical analysis regarding the pressing political, economic and ideological issues of the time.]

  5. #204
    Senior Member Abu_Jannah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,597

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by A.H View Post
    Not really akhee, especially considering the radical transformation of the Muslim world through colonialism and the imposition of nation-states. With all due respect, I think that statement is far from accurate.

    Can you name a few books or sources?
    The Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "The khilafah after me is thirty years, then there will be biting kingship"

    This hadeeth has been related by Imaam Ahmad in al-Musnad, al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, Abu Ya'laa in al-Musnad, Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh and at-Tirmidhee in as-Sunan. And the meaning of the hadeeth has been explained by al-Haafidh (Ibn Hajar) in al-Fath, he said: "He meant by the khilaafah, the khilaafah of prophethood (i.e. the thirty years), and as for Mu'aawiyah and whoever came after him, then they were upon the way of the kings (i.e. kingship) even if they are named "khalifahs (successors)".

    Clearly the situation where the khilaafah of prophethood was abolished, occurred long time ago.
    Many scholars dealt with the absence of Khilafah and none said what Salahudin is claiming.

    The books of Fiqh I was talking about are mainly the Hanafi ones. They deal with anything that may technically happen. Questions such as what a Muslim should do after having intercourse with a donkey!
    The absence of the Khilafah is obvisouly a question that would have technically happened.
    Let alone the fact that a particular method of establishing the Khilafah of prophethood was never made Fard upon the Ummah. None of the four madhahib mentioned such an heresy.

  6. #205
    A.H
    A.H is offline
    Ali Harfouch A.H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    819

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Jannah View Post
    The Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said: "The khilafah after me is thirty years, then there will be biting kingship"

    This hadeeth has been related by Imaam Ahmad in al-Musnad, al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, Abu Ya'laa in al-Musnad, Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh and at-Tirmidhee in as-Sunan. And the meaning of the hadeeth has been explained by al-Haafidh (Ibn Hajar) in al-Fath, he said: "He meant by the khilaafah, the khilaafah of prophethood (i.e. the thirty years), and as for Mu'aawiyah and whoever came after him, then they were upon the way of the kings (i.e. kingship) even if they are named "khalifahs (successors)".

    Clearly the situation where the khilaafah of prophethood was abolished, occurred long time ago.
    Many scholars dealt with the absence of Khilafah and none said what Salahudin is claiming.

    The books of Fiqh I was talking about are mainly the Hanafi ones. They deal with anything that may technically happen. Questions such as what a Muslim should do after having intercourse with a donkey!
    The absence of the Khilafah is obvisouly a question that would have technically happened.
    Let alone the fact that a particular method of establishing the Khilafah of prophethood was never made Fard upon the Ummah. None of the four madhahib mentioned such an heresy.
    1- Please refer to the correct Sharh of the Hadith you've mentioned, as agreed upon by the scholars. It was still Dar ul-Islaam, and thus the need for a methodolody to re-establish Dar ul-Islaam was not of priority, and not relevant. Perhaps what you are referring to is Tajdid pertaining to reform of the Muslim world and not radical change (of the socio-political and economic "reality") i.e. what Islamic movements ranging from the original MB to the Jihadee movements are referring to.

    2- What is your opinion of the Ijtihaad on "methodology to re-establish Khilafah" by Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, 'Abd Allah 'Azzam, al-Mawdudi, Mustafa Mashhour, Taqi ad-DIn an-Nabahani, Muhammad Qutb, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, and dozens of others? Why did they perform Ijtihaad on the issue as opposed to referring to the classics (which you haven't mentioned yet)?

    3- Yes there is a 'method' and that is the 'Prophetic Method' which every single Islamic thinker, scholar, and activist has tried to approximate and work upon accordingly. If there was no 'precedent' i.e. a Prophetic method then there would be no Ijtihaad. Basically, your acknowledgement that there must have been Ijtihaad on the issue by the Salaaf and prominent classical scholars implies that there was indeed a Prophetic method which they've drawn upon. Now, the nature of this method, is another topic but as I've said it is broad and normative i.e. capable of being universal and timeless.
    حزب التحرير - ولاية لبنان

    New Civilisation

    [an online political journal which provides a unique source of insight and critical analysis regarding the pressing political, economic and ideological issues of the time.]

  7. #206
    A.H
    A.H is offline
    Ali Harfouch A.H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    819

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansoor Ali View Post
    HT is a party that's founded upon misguidance. Concerning the matters related to 'aqeeda they are known to have said nothing should be accepted except that which conforms to the intellenct. They also disbelieve in those things prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam, believed in, such as the punishment of the grave and the dajjaal or antichrist. They're a group which has no concern for having the right beliefs, but they're full of concern for politics. One of their members was asked a long time ago why they don't have schools for memorizing the quraan, and that person said he doesn't want to produce dervishes. HT are people Muslims must stay away from, they misinterpret texts and reject some beliefs of Islaam.
    May Allah preserve you akhee, please bring me the quotes and references and we can discuss them passage by passage insha Allah. Secondly, your claim that we are Mu'tazilite is based on our apparent understanding of al 'Aql, and this is quite a big claim, have you read at-Tafkeer by Taqi ad-Din an-Nahabani before doing so? The book explains, in detail, what is meant by al 'Aql and its relation to al Wahy.
    حزب التحرير - ولاية لبنان

    New Civilisation

    [an online political journal which provides a unique source of insight and critical analysis regarding the pressing political, economic and ideological issues of the time.]

  8. #207
    Senior Member Mansoor Ali's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Woodford Bridge, Essex, UK
    Age
    44
    Posts
    3,387

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by A.H View Post
    please bring me the quotes and references and we can discuss them passage by passage insha Allah.
    The founder of HT, Taqiuddeen Nabhaanee, was a follower of the mu'tazila.

    In Nabhaanee's work "ash-Shakhsiyya al-Islaamiyya" he said what translates as "And from that the intellect ('aql) specifies (i.e. qualifies) the generality of [Quraanic] verse, as for using the likes of these verses as evidence, then it is not relevant, because these verses are connected with beliefs (aqaa'id), and not the Sharee'a rulings (ahkaam). And the intellect is used to deduce evidence for the aqaaid (beliefs), and the legislation (shar) is [also] used for them, but the evidence for the belief (i'tiqaad) in the legislation, fundamentally, is the intellect (aql), and thus, it is correct that the 'aql (intellect) [itself] is an evidence for beliefs (aqaa'id), and thus it is correct that it (the intellect) is an evidence for understanding the verses, and it is correct that it also qualifies (specifies) the beliefs (aqaaid)"

    Nabhaanee makes the understanding and qualification of the verses to be based upon the intellect (i.e. what the intellect can prove and accept), and not upon what the salaf hold that the Quraan is explained by the Quraan and then by the sunnah and then by the sayings of the of companions.

  9. #208
    A.H
    A.H is offline
    Ali Harfouch A.H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    819

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansoor Ali View Post
    The founder of HT, Taqiuddeen Nabhaanee, was a follower of the mu'tazila.

    In Nabhaanee's work "ash-Shakhsiyya al-Islaamiyya" he said what translates as "And from that the intellect ('aql) specifies (i.e. qualifies) the generality of [Quraanic] verse, as for using the likes of these verses as evidence, then it is not relevant, because these verses are connected with beliefs (aqaa'id), and not the Sharee'a rulings (ahkaam). And the intellect is used to deduce evidence for the aqaaid (beliefs), and the legislation (shar) is [also] used for them, but the evidence for the belief (i'tiqaad) in the legislation, fundamentally, is the intellect (aql), and thus, it is correct that the 'aql (intellect) [itself] is an evidence for beliefs (aqaa'id), and thus it is correct that it (the intellect) is an evidence for understanding the verses, and it is correct that it also qualifies (specifies) the beliefs (aqaaid)"

    Nabhaanee makes the understanding and qualification of the verses to be based upon the intellect (i.e. what the intellect can prove and accept), and not upon what the salaf hold that the Quraan is explained by the Quraan and then by the sunnah and then by the sayings of the of companions.
    Please answer my previous question in regards to your prior research of HT's literature (as opposed to asharis.com). And can you give me the page number for the above quote so that I can read its original arabic context?

  10. #209
    Senior Member Mansoor Ali's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Woodford Bridge, Essex, UK
    Age
    44
    Posts
    3,387

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by A.H View Post
    Please answer my previous question in regards to your prior research of HT's literature (as opposed to asharis.com). And can you give me the page number for the above quote so that I can read its original arabic context?
    I don't know what your previous question is.

    I don't have the page number.

    Nabhaanee stated that it is necessary that the 'aqeeda of a Muslim is based upon the intellect, or upon that whose foundation is established through the route of the intellect.

    I have known HT for 22 years. 10 years ago I met a former member of HT who approached me and said "You were right all along, HT are deviant mu'tazilites."

    As for disbelieving in the coming of the antichrist this is something I heard from an HT member a long time ago.

    Another member of HT told me "I don't believe in the punishment of the grave."
    Last edited by Mansoor Ali; 21st August 2012 at 03:49 AM.

  11. #210
    Senior Member Abu_Jannah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,597

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by A.H View Post
    1- Please refer to the correct Sharh of the Hadith you've mentioned, as agreed upon by the scholars. It was still Dar ul-Islaam, and thus the need for a methodolody to re-establish Dar ul-Islaam was not of priority, and not relevant. Perhaps what you are referring to is Tajdid pertaining to reform of the Muslim world and not radical change (of the socio-political and economic "reality") i.e. what Islamic movements ranging from the original MB to the Jihadee movements are referring to.

    2- What is your opinion of the Ijtihaad on "methodology to re-establish Khilafah" by Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, 'Abd Allah 'Azzam, al-Mawdudi, Mustafa Mashhour, Taqi ad-DIn an-Nabahani, Muhammad Qutb, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, and dozens of others? Why did they perform Ijtihaad on the issue as opposed to referring to the classics (which you haven't mentioned yet)?

    3- Yes there is a 'method' and that is the 'Prophetic Method' which every single Islamic thinker, scholar, and activist has tried to approximate and work upon accordingly. If there was no 'precedent' i.e. a Prophetic method then there would be no Ijtihaad. Basically, your acknowledgement that there must have been Ijtihaad on the issue by the Salaaf and prominent classical scholars implies that there was indeed a Prophetic method which they've drawn upon. Now, the nature of this method, is another topic but as I've said it is broad and normative i.e. capable of being universal and timeless.
    Interesting that you consider a territory being Dar ul Islam even if ruled by a king and not a Khalifah.
    Some people doesn't believe in it.
    It should be a Khilafah or nothing.

    Today do you say that there is no Darul Islam at all and this is the reason why you say that there is a radical change compared to before? When did this radical change occur?

    Akhi, regarding other methods, and as I said earlier, a specific method of re-establishing the Khilafah should not be made fard upon the Ummah to follow. There may be preferences based on the parameters and environment we are living in, but not fard qati3.
    I was replying to Salahuddin on this matter. Even if it is considered a "radical" change it doesn't change the fact that this situation is technically possible from day one.

    And saying that hundreds of icons and pillars of this Ummah have forgotten to mention this "Fard" method in case of absence of the Khilafah, it make absolutely no sense.
    Last edited by Abu_Jannah; 21st August 2012 at 07:54 AM.

Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Video English Translation of Audio From Sheikh Mukhtar Abu Zubayr Entitled "The Islamic State Will Remain"
    By surahtawbahverse24 in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 9th May 2010, 10:49 PM
  2. Breaking News! Islamic State of Iraq: "Traitors and Liars" (The Arrest of Abu Omer al Bagdadhi)
    By AbuUsama in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 1st June 2009, 04:15 PM
  3. Pictures Flag of "Islamic State of Iraq" in Indonesia
    By Baghdadi in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 9th November 2008, 02:46 PM
  4. The Methodology of Hizb ut-Tahrir to "re-"establish khilafah
    By Abu'l 'Eyse in forum Da'wah and Methodology
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 20th February 2007, 08:01 AM
  5. Ottoman monarchy an "islamic state"? Lies torpedo
    By WM in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 4th April 2005, 12:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258