Page 3 of 25 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 241
Like Tree4Likes

The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

This is a discussion on The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir within the Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs forums, part of the Main Topics category; Originally Posted by Die for Allah The party has good aspects and should be commended for them and there is ...

  1. #21
    [x]
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,131

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Die for Allah View Post
    The party has good aspects and should be commended for them and there is nothing wrong with much of their analysis of the global situation of the Ummah.
    Word, jazaakAllaah khairan. I don't take anyone who paints entire groups with the same brush seriously. I know UK has NOT tasted the dawah in the states (and I can't say I understand what you guys go through in the UK). The distance between the Muslims in the US who stand for the oppressed and Islamic interests and those who stay silent or support the American intervention is so vast that those who speak up fall in the category of being all-talk and unwise. You guys are blessed you have a larger platform and a greater variety of organizations. Instead of taking advantage and building bridges (despite how hard it WILL be), you attack each other like mad... while Muslims here have unified like a rainbow to be 'diplomatic Americans' melting and becoming like everyone else.

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to murdiyyah For This Useful Post:
    A.H (11th August 2012), ahmad10 (2nd August 2012), al-suyuufi (9th August 2012), umais (11th August 2012), Wild Wild West (2nd August 2012)

  3. #22
    Senior Member
    Wild Wild West's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Where the Heart is
    Posts
    12,415

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by murdiyyah View Post
    Instead of taking advantage and building bridges (despite how hard it WILL be), you attack each other like mad...
    Well, that is why we don't build bridges -- because it is hard.

    It is much easier just to do takfeer or tabdee' of the other and live in the comfort of knowing that we are better than them.

    HT has many issues, but to say (as someone did) that they have deviated 'aqeedah and that they will therefore not bring about khilafa is a bit of a stale joke. What should we do instead, follow JIMAS and Suhaib Hasan? I guess their 'Aqeedah is certified as good.

    The contemporary dictators have no shortage of scholars with good aqeedah backing them up. Can someone please explain to me how these guys will bring about khilafa and how much progress they have made?
    The Hawaalian Alliance
    Faith - Insight - Progress


    عليكم بعمل الأبطال: طلب الرزق من الحلال
    Do the Deed of Heroes: Seek Rizq from Halal
    -Sufyan al-Thawri

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Wild Wild West For This Useful Post:
    A.H (11th August 2012), Abu'l 'Eyse (2nd August 2012), AbuMubarak (4th August 2012), murdiyyah (2nd August 2012)

  5. #23
    Rep-manz
    Abu'l 'Eyse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    11,775

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Take the good leave the bad and have one less samosa for Iftar iA
    "Sit with one whose limbs address you, not his mouth." Sahl ibn `Abd Allah ibn Yunus, Abu Muhammad al-Tustari (d. 283), may Allah be well-pleased with him.

    قال إبن عمر: "ولا يكن في قولك فضل على فعلك" ,أخرج البيهقي: شعب الإيمان وابن حجر العسقلاني: الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة

    Ibn 'Umar said: "And do not let your words be in excess to your actions", Al-Baihaqi: Shu'ab al-Imaan and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani: Al-Isaabah fee Taymeez as-Sahaaba




    Justice for those who are oppressed!

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Abu'l 'Eyse For This Useful Post:
    Abu Hafsa al Andalusi (4th August 2012), Abu Treika (6th August 2012), AbuMubarak (4th August 2012), Field Marshall (18th November 2012), Ibn Abbas Al-Misri (12th August 2012), leo (11th August 2012)

  7. #24
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    26

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by hikma View Post
    I found it easier to download the book than read it on line

    http://english.hizbuttahrir.org/imag...CivilState.pdf
    I gather nobody could take up an issue with the book for which the thread was started since it exposes one of the biggest hoaxes of our time in getting Muslims to advocate a Secular Civil State over the Islamic State?

    Then definitely everyone should read it.

  8. #25
    Senior Member Abu_Jannah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,508

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilmseeker1 View Post
    That's wrong they believe that offensive jihad I.e. opening lands to Islam can only be done under a khalif even the FSA commander said members of hizb ut Tahrir are fighting with them.

    FSA's comments on Islamic movements like Hizb ut Tahrir: FSA Commander's TV interview [July 2012] - YouTube

    Where is the evidence from your side?
    Well, I said some of them, from my personal experience and I believe that Sheikh Abu Bassir At-Tartusy hafidhahuLlah had the same feeling:

    Here is a short summary of the main points in the text written by Sheikh Abu Bassir At-Tartusy hafidhahuLlah (book 04 section 28):

    There are tough words which have not been translated: http://www.altartosi.com/book/book04/sec28.html

    And here are their words when they say that there is no other method to establish the Khilafa other than asking the Nusrah - following the actions of the Prophet (saws) who asked for Nusrah for his religion and himself to the tribes and to the arabs chiefs.

    Here are the following comments to this allegation:

    They consider asking for Nusrah as a project on which Islamic groups are authorized to seek if they find a way to succeed. And this is indeed the truth and there is neither confusion nor divergence on that. But this is only a choice, which does not justify the passivity of the Ummah for the preparation of Jihad in the path of Allah and does not prevent the Ummah to do so. All this becomes easy when it goes hand to hand and it is not permissible to leave one for the other.
    Regarding the fact that asking for Nusrah is the condition for the establishment of the Khilafah – where HT stands – and as they say it is not allowed for the Ummah to follow another method to support the religion or upheld a word of Allah in a way other than asking for Nusrah.
    We say that this allegation is Batil (wrong) because it is not supported by any texts or any valid justifications contain in the shari3a either implicitly of explicitly. Allah did not send any revelation in connection with that matter. There is nothing considered as such by the Salafs nor by our predecessors. And those who pretend the contrary shall bring the evidence and its proof. "Produce your Burhan if you are truthful.''s2v111)
    And if asking for Nusrah is the condition to establish the khilafah - which is the opinion of a large members of HT – as if it is one of the principle amongst the principles agreed in Ahl As Sunnah wa Jama’ah – then they should bring one text from the Quran or the Sunnah which supports it, or as Islamic scholars require: even one text from the books of jurisprudence and science. Since there are no evidences, this condition is considered false and cannot be taken as such.
    What did the Prophet (saws) by asking for Nusrah to the Arab tribes and fractions was due to his vulnerability and weaknesses during the early time of Islam before the completion of the Quran and the religion. It only indicates that it is permissible to do so and it does never indicate that it is obligatory as well as it does not indicate that it is a condition for the resumption of Islamic life and the establishment of the Khilafah Rashidah. Neither, it does justify the invalidity of the jihad, which has completed the religion and legitimized its rules.
    To prove that this condition is obligatory in the shari3ah, it must be reflected and referenced in a clear text. So, where are the texts in the Shari3a which support the obligation and necessity upon the Ummah to ask for Nusrah and prove that asking for Nusrah is fard and obligatory?
    As the method of asking for Nusrah – as presented before – is not supported by any valid text, which justify the degree of obligation and Fard, so how is it possible to abandon the path of Jihad while it is indeed supported by clear texts from the Shari3ah showing its entire obligation?

    The reasons that made the prophet (saws) opted to ask for Nusrah from Arab Tribes were the state of weakness and the small number of believers that couldn’t bear the responsibility imposed by Islam. And when sufficiency, power and motivations were finally achieved, it was no longer required and repeated. Would the Prophet (saws) have opted to ask for Nusrah and solicited Arab Tribes if they were hundreds of thousand like are the HT members? Can we imagine that he would have said: we will not beat these 12000 because of our small number?
    It is indeed the state of weakness and small number of the Muslims, which led the Prophet (saws) to use the method of Nusrah, so what is the reason today to ask for Nusrah when the number of Muslims reaches more than one billion? And what leads HT to hide behind the excuse of seeking for Nusrah for more than fifty years while according to them, the total of their members exceeds more than hundreds of thousand? Or, is it just a pretext to postpone the Jihad Fissabi liLlah, which is something obligatory upon the Muslims?
    It made us conclude that the pretext of asking for Nusrah is actually aimed to stop and forbid the Jihad and implement HT's own way in changing the reality and the life of the Muslims. We ask HT: If there is a man commanding hundred of thousand of fighters, complying with all the requirements such as materials, religion and morals, which would enable him to proclaim the Khilafah, would HT refuse to pledge allegiance to them and privilege the method of asking for Nusrah from another one, especially from a group who has not the same religion, following what did our prophet (saws) when he presented himself to the Arab tribes?
    So if HT answers positively, then they have delayed one of the greatest duty after Tawhid (Jihad), especially with the capacity of reviving it and the urgent need of its application.... then, they shall consider themselves as the enemy (obstacle) of the khilafah, as they finally don’t want it to exist.

    And if HT says that they do not require to ask for Nusra from another Party, since the present one has the necessary power and capacity to declare the Khilafah, then they have invalidated (destroyed) their own method themselves, for which they have been debating for so long. So whatever would be the answer of HT to that question, it will be a failure and will show the problem with HT and its ideas.

    During the time of the Prophet (saws), the method of asking for Nusrah was pretty common and predominant within the arab tribes as it was considered to have a great potential and to be an effective mean. For example, if a person would have requested the protection from his neighbour tribe or a tribal chief, he would have obtained the necessary help, which is the contrary in our contemporary time. It’s no longer applicable, as the strong countries took over. It’s not easy to rely on this principle of Nusrah anymore. The effectiveness of Nusrah is strongly weakened by the wide and modern system of espionage and intelligence monitored by local and international regulations, which makes it impossible to succeed with this method to establish an Islamic Sate

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Abu_Jannah For This Useful Post:
    murdiyyah (3rd August 2012)

  10. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ardul Kharaj
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    As salam alaikum


    According to sh Abu Basir at Tartusy:

    We ask HT: If there is a man commanding hundred of thousand of fighters, complying with all the requirements such as materials, religion and morals, which would enable him to proclaim the Khilafah, would HT refuse to pledge allegiance to them and privilege the method of asking for Nusrah from another one, especially from a group who has not the same religion, following what did our prophet (saws) when he presented himself to the Arab tribes?
    So if HT answers positively, then they have delayed one of the greatest duty after Tawhid (Jihad), especially with the capacity of reviving it and the urgent need of its application.... then, they shall consider themselves as the enemy (obstacle) of the khilafah, as they finally don’t want it to exist.

    I am not HT nor represent their party, however if I may address some of the shaykh's valid points for the sake of discussion.


    1) The capacity of implementing the Islamic state, hence the khilafah, should be considered to be more than just having the command of 100,000 fighters even if they are moral, pious/religious, and have material means. But it is close to the material means which the Shariah could recognize.

    2), it is of vital importance for HT to present their definition of the 'material means' of implementing the Islamic state within contemporary reality. That is, it is known that HT identifies their majal in the arabic speaking countries. But it is also known that shaykh Taqideen an Nabhani (rh) chose against seeking the Nusra only from Jordan, as it was deemed too weak of a country to sustain an Islamic state and khilafah within his contemporary reality and inferior means.

    3) The Prophet (saaw) rejected the Nusra of at least one tribe due to its proximity and ties to the Persian empire, which one may deduce to be based on its inability to adequately have the material means to stand against the Persian empire alone at that time which apparently was only a stones throw away from its gates ( figuratively speaking). Is this not proof that there are multiple factors involved in determining Nusra, besides just the size of a force?


    A vitally important measure for Islamic movements, and there are now multiple ones working towards the resumption of the Rule By What Allah has Revealed, eg. the Islamic state, the Khilafah, is for them to define internally or publicly by what standards are the material means by which one can implement the state. Instead of conferences to edit the Mardin fatwa, ulama should address this point: Material Means for Islamic State.



    The reality today is despite a country being recognized as a globally recognized, independent nation state according to the Taghut World Order, that does NOT fulfill the Sharia requirement of being able to sustain and uphold an Islamic state. Jordan today is alone too small to be an Islamic state. As are the smaller GCC nations. Island nations like Trinidad Tobago, Maldives, Sychelles, are too small.

    Here are some questions which should be addressed in the formation of such an effort:

    ***Is the self sustainability of a region in terms of arable land, water, natural and human resources, included in the definition of "material means"? For example, should a region being considered for an Islamic state be able to feed itself? Or is that not necessary: why or why not?

    ***Should a region have a minimum of certain natural defensive barriers which would serve as an advantage for the state, as Al Madinah Munawarra has such natural defensive barriers: mountains, lava fields?

    In today's reality, America showed the world it could drive at least one division through the desert within a few days and attack Baghdad. However, Baghdad as a city has no natural defenses and is and for the past centuries been prone to a straight assault/march from an army. Russia's cities show this same vulnerability (circa WWII). In contrast, a city in the mountains would severely inhibit the ability of any army to advance against it. Mountain ranges today would allow defenses to be tunnelled (North Korea and Afghanistan come to mind). One could argue Islamabad has some of those defensive qualities in comparison to the previous capital of the Singh province: Karachi.


    ***And of course proximity is a major factor too: where is the region for a state located? Bosnia is not a feasible candidate for an Islamic state. Nor is Gaza or the West Bank by themselves.

    ***Human population/human resources are a major factor: are there enough people to uphold a state? Or is the population too small by today's reality? A region does not have to have 300 million people like America, but neither can it's native population be smaller than the average city, like Qatar.


    more later insha Allah.
    Last edited by Abu Kamel; 3rd August 2012 at 02:17 AM.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Abu Kamel For This Useful Post:
    ish (3rd August 2012), murdiyyah (3rd August 2012)

  12. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    831

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Die for Allah View Post
    The party has good aspects and should be commended for them and there is nothing wrong with much of their analysis of the global situation of the Ummah.
    Analysis is definitely one of the strongest points of HT and most of their analyses are very well researched complete with cited sources that would take a large amount of time and effort for anybody to carry out. Where HT falls down badly are their real world methods to implement what they stand for in practice. They also don't like to publicise the fact that they are quite a weak force with little popular support in most Muslim majority countries and that their powerbase and membership is in the kufr west.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikma View Post
    I gather nobody could take up an issue with the book for which the thread was started since it exposes one of the biggest hoaxes of our time in getting Muslims to advocate a Secular Civil State over the Islamic State?

    Then definitely everyone should read it.
    My experience is that far too many Muslims are too eager to shoot the messenger before reading the message he is carrying. I have a collection of HT material at home which has resulted in a response from other brothers that I'm an HT sympathiser. There are times when I have considered repackaging good quality HT material to make it more palatable to ordinary Muslims and those naturally critical of HT.

  13. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    296

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Jannah View Post
    Well, I said some of them, from my personal experience and I believe that Sheikh Abu Bassir At-Tartusy hafidhahuLlah had the same feeling:

    Here is a short summary of the main points in the text written by Sheikh Abu Bassir At-Tartusy hafidhahuLlah (book 04 section 28):

    There are tough words which have not been translated: http://www.altartosi.com/book/book04/sec28.html
    As with many so called "critiques" of the Party; there is a clear misunderstanding of the method to Resume the Islamic Way of Life i.e. the Party's method. Nusrah is not the method to establish the State and never will be. The Islamic Aqeeda is the basis of the State and not a man who may undertake a coup with some men thinking he can circumvent the authority of the ummah. The preparation of the ummah is one of the integral parts of the method to establish the popular base (see what Musab (ra) acheived in Medina) with which the Party will move towards the support point with the leadership of the ummah and being in a position to declare the Khilafah. This preparation incorporates obtaining the support of the people of influence and power whoever they may be.

    The Party's method is based on the actions of the Muhammed (saw); from the building of the Sahaba around him (culturing); the open call (Interacting with society as a bloc / group); to taking the leadership of the people of Medina, the transfer of authority to the Prophet (saw) at the 2nd pledge of Aqaba and all that occured in between to seeking the Nusrah for protection and having that Nusrah; and determining whether to utilise it in accordance to the circumstances.

    The Party has its plan of action; the ummah is now aware of the Khilafah and its importance. There is more work to be done to complete the Interaction Period.

  14. #29
    Senior Member AbuMubarak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,115

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    why are we so venomous with each other?
    لا إله إلا الله
    محمد رسول الله
    صلى ألله عليه و سلم

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AbuMubarak For This Useful Post:
    Ahmad-0xAF (22nd December 2012), Field Marshall (18th November 2012), umais (11th August 2012)

  16. #30
    Rep-manz
    Abu'l 'Eyse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    11,775

    Default Re: The Islamic State and the "Civic State" by Hizb ut-Tahrir

    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    As with many so called "critiques" of the Party; there is a clear misunderstanding of the method to Resume the Islamic Way of Life i.e. the Party's method. Nusrah is not the method to establish the State and never will be. The Islamic Aqeeda is the basis of the State and not a man who may undertake a coup with some men thinking he can circumvent the authority of the ummah. The preparation of the ummah is one of the integral parts of the method to establish the popular base (see what Musab (ra) acheived in Medina) with which the Party will move towards the support point with the leadership of the ummah and being in a position to declare the Khilafah. This preparation incorporates obtaining the support of the people of influence and power whoever they may be.

    The Party's method is based on the actions of the Muhammed (saw); from the building of the Sahaba around him (culturing); the open call (Interacting with society as a bloc / group); to taking the leadership of the people of Medina, the transfer of authority to the Prophet (saw) at the 2nd pledge of Aqaba and all that occured in between to seeking the Nusrah for protection and having that Nusrah; and determining whether to utilise it in accordance to the circumstances.

    The Party has its plan of action; the ummah is now aware of the Khilafah and its importance. There is more work to be done to complete the Interaction Period.
    Brother Could you elaborate on what the actual evidences are to say each of the stages you mentioned were performed by the Rasul(sallahu 'alayhi was-salaam) to actually establish the state?

    JazakAllahu khairan in advance
    "Sit with one whose limbs address you, not his mouth." Sahl ibn `Abd Allah ibn Yunus, Abu Muhammad al-Tustari (d. 283), may Allah be well-pleased with him.

    قال إبن عمر: "ولا يكن في قولك فضل على فعلك" ,أخرج البيهقي: شعب الإيمان وابن حجر العسقلاني: الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة

    Ibn 'Umar said: "And do not let your words be in excess to your actions", Al-Baihaqi: Shu'ab al-Imaan and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani: Al-Isaabah fee Taymeez as-Sahaaba




    Justice for those who are oppressed!

Page 3 of 25 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Video English Translation of Audio From Sheikh Mukhtar Abu Zubayr Entitled "The Islamic State Will Remain"
    By surahtawbahverse24 in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 9th May 2010, 10:49 PM
  2. Breaking News! Islamic State of Iraq: "Traitors and Liars" (The Arrest of Abu Omer al Bagdadhi)
    By AbuUsama in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 1st June 2009, 04:15 PM
  3. Pictures Flag of "Islamic State of Iraq" in Indonesia
    By Baghdadi in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 9th November 2008, 02:46 PM
  4. The Methodology of Hizb ut-Tahrir to "re-"establish khilafah
    By Abu'l 'Eyse in forum Da'wah and Methodology
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 20th February 2007, 08:01 AM
  5. Ottoman monarchy an "islamic state"? Lies torpedo
    By WM in forum Politics, Jihad and Current Affairs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 4th April 2005, 12:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38