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Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)

This is a discussion on Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW) within the Islam in General forums, part of the Main Topics category; Assalaamu Alaykum everyone. Hope everyone is in the best of health and faith. I have made this thread to clear ...

  1. #1
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    Default Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)

    Assalaamu Alaykum everyone. Hope everyone is in the best of health and faith.

    I have made this thread to clear some confusion.
    A Barelwi brother i know is presenting the following as evidence to prove we can go to the grave of the Prophet(SAW) and ask the Prophet(SAW).

    The first video is habib al jiffri speaking :
    Sahaba visiting the Grave of the Prophet - [Eng Subs] زيارة القبور في الصحاح - YouTube
    The evidence presented is :

    Dawud ibn Salih says: "[The Caliph] Marwan [ibn al-Hakam] one day saw a man placing his face on top of the grave of the Prophet. He said: "Do you know what you are doing?" When he came near him, he realized it was Abu Ayyub al-Ansari. The latter said: "Yes; I came to the Prophet, not to a stone."

    Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, Ahmad (5:422), Tabarani in his Mu`jam al-kabir (4:189) and his Awsat according to Haythami in al-Zawa'id (5:245), al-Hakim in his Mustadrak (4:515); both the latter and al-Dhahabi said it was sahih. It is also cited by al-Subki in Shifa' al-siqam (p. 126), Ibn Taymiyya in al-Muntaqa (2:261f.), and Haythami in al-Zawa'id (4:2).

    The 2nd evidence he presents is a narration from ibn Kathir(rh)s book.
    Some urdu is spoken in the 2nd video. But the hadith is shown.
    IBn taymiya's student: hafiz ibn katheer says- asking from graves is allowed from sahih hadith - YouTube

    He also presents the following :
    Sayyiduna Maalik al-Daar, the treasurer of food during the time of Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattaab [radhiallaahu anhu], reports that once the people had been experiencing a drought in the era of Sayyiduna Umar [radhiallaahu anhu], a man went to the grave of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] and said, 'O Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam], ask for rain on behalf of your Ummah, for verily, they are being destroyed.' Thereafter this person was instructed in a dream to go to Sayyiduna Umar [radhiallaahu anhu] and tell him that, 'the rains will soon come and say to him, Be intelligent', When Umar [radhiallaahu anhu] was informed of this, he began to cry and he said, 'O My Lord, I will only leave out what I am unable to do.'

    -(Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah vol.12 pg.31-32; Dalaailun-nubuwwah of Imaam Bayhaqi vol.7 pg.47).
    -Hafiz ibn Katheer [ra] has stated that the chain of narrators is 'good and strong' (Musnadul Faarooq vol.1 pg.223).
    -Ibn Kathir cites it thus from al-Bayhaqi's Dala'il al-Nubuwwa (7:47) in al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya (Ma`arif ed. 7:91-92=Dar Ihya' al-Turath ed. 7:105) saying: "isnaduhu sahih" and he also declares its chain sound (isnaduhu jayyidun qawi) in his Jami` al-Masanid (1:223)
    -in Musnad `Umar. Ibn Abi Shayba cites it (6:352=12:31-32) with a sound (sahih) chain as confirmed by Ibn Hajar who says: "rawa Ibn Abi Shayba bi'isnadin sahih" and cites the hadith in Fath al-Bari, Book of Istisqa ch. 3 (1989 ed. 2:629-630=1959 ed. 2:495) as well as in al-Isaba (6:164 §8350=3:484) where he says that Ibn Abi Khaythama cited it. It is also thus narrated by al-Khalili in al-Irshad (1:313- 314) and Ibn `Abd al-Barr in al-Isti`ab (2:464=3:1149).
    Ibn Hajar identifies the man who visited and saw the Prophet upon him peace, in his dream as the Companion Bilal ibn al- Harith, counting this hadith among the reasons for al- Bukhari's naming of the chapter "The people's request to their leader for rain if they suffer drought" in his Sahih, book of Istisqa'.

    Another hadith: the beduin at the blessed grave of our sayyed(saws):

    Al-`Utbi said: "As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Beduin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful" (Quran 4:64), so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord." [Then he began to recite poetry]
    Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet in my sleep. He said to me: "O `Utbi, run after the Beduin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him.""

    The classification of this hadith:
    -A report graded mashhur (established and well-known) and related by Nawawi, Adhkar, Mecca ed. p. 253-254, al-Majmu` 8:217, and al-Idah fi manasik al-hajj, chapters on visiting the grave of the Prophet; Ibn Jama`a, Hidayat al-salik 3:1384;
    -Ibn `Aqil, al-Tadhkira; Ibn Qudama, al-Mughni 3:556-557;
    -al-Qurtubi, Tafsir of 4:64 in Ahkam al-Qur'an 5:265;
    -Samhudi, Khulasat al-Wafa p. 121 (from Nawawi);
    -Dahlan, Khulasat al-Kalam 2:247;
    -Ibn Kathir, Tafsir 2:306, and al-Bidayat wa al-nihayat 1:180;
    -Abu al-Faraj ibn Qudama, al-Sharh al-kabir 3:495;
    -al-Bahuti al-Hanbali, Kashshaf al-qina` 5:30;
    -Taqi al-Din al-Subki, Shifa' al-siqam p. 52;
    -Ibn al-Jawzi, Muthir al-gharam al-sakin ila ashraf al-amakin p. 490;
    -al-Bayhaqi, Shu`ab al-iman #4178;
    -Ibn `Asakir, Mukhtasar tarikh Dimashq 2:408;
    -Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, al-Jawhar al-munazzam [commentary on Nawawi's Idah];
    -Ibn al-Najjar, Akhbar al-Madina p. 147. A similar report is cited through Sufyan ibn `Uyayna (Shafi`i's shaykh), and through Abu Sa`id al-Sam`ani on the authority of `Ali (RA).

    Has anyone come across these narations in the books mentioned above ?

    JazakaAllah khair

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)

    Salaam Alaikum,

    Firstly, barelwis are not our brothers (as a group - and certainly as individuals if they reveal such beliefs as this one).

    Secondly, the reply of Brother Ayman bin Khalid (I think he dislikes being called 'Shaykh') should suffice (in regards to the narration concerning Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (radiallahu anhu):

    a. al-Hakim (رحمه الله) did not say this Hadeeth is Saheeh!. Rather he said its chain is Sahih and there is a big difference between each statement as known in science of hadeeth. The former means the narration is authentic whereas the latter does not necessirely mean the narrtion is authentic.

    b. al-Dhahabi never agreed with al-Hakim on such statement. How would he agree on such classification when he himself stated that Dawd bin Saleh, who exists in the chain, is unknown narrator [refer to al-Mizaan of al-Dhahabi: 3/14 and Tahdheeb al-Tahdheen of al-Hafith: 3/188].

    c. The chain also includes Katheer bin Zaid who is disputed over i.e. Abu Zar'a said he is Sadooq with some leen while al-Nasaie said he is weak.

    d. Dawd bin Saleh narrates this story from a man called Marwaan and he is also unknown

    Based on this, the chain is obviously weak and no scholar would ever say its chain is Sahih unless he relies on the work of al-hakim, which is incorrect in this one, without anticipating it.

    With regards the Matn of the narrtion, then it is obvious that it has some obvious oddness that prove its incorrectness, as can be noted. The narration indicate that the grave is in public and seen by whoever pass by while, as a matter of fact, we all know that the grave of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is actually located in the room of Aisha (رضي الله عنها). In addition, it is known that the Salaf including Imam Malik who was an observer to acts of people of Madina and Imam Ahmad who was in the region of Hijaaz or the Shafie who was in Mecca disliked and disapproved touching the grave and said that people of knowledge never done it, which proves that such narrtion is too weak and no one ever acted upon.

    In summery,
    The chain is very weak and so is its text also. So, no one should quote such narrations or dig through narrations that never been acted upon by scholars. Thus whatever you concluded based on such narration is rejected and cannot be accepted or even considered.

    Secondly, the aathar of Malik ad-Darr has issues and all of them are raised by the brothers at Ahlulhadeeth wordpress in this three-part reply.
    The SECOND Reply to Asraar Rasheed as-Soofee al-Bareilwee (& Abul Hasan, GF Haddad, faqir & whoever) | Ahlul hadeeth
    The THIRD Reply to Abul Hasan Soofee & Asraar Rasheed as-Soofee al-Bareilwee (GF Haddad, faqir & whoever) | Ahlul hadeeth

    If you ignore the slightly infantile titles they are a wealth of useful information.

    Thirdly, the 'story of al-Utbi' is just that- a story. It does not constitute any form of Shari'a evidence.

    However, in analysis of the text, brother Abuz-Zubair noted the following:

    Version:1.0StartHTML:0000000167EndHTML:0000002624S tartFragment:0000000454EndFragment:0000002608
    With respect to Ibn Qudama quotingal-‘Utbi’s narration in al-Mughni, then there are a few points weshould bear in mind:

    1) Ibn Qudama does not mention thenarration as an evidence, but only as a citation, which is why hesays: ‘yurwa’ – it has been narrated, indicating that thenarration is weak, and therefore, not suitable as an evidence.

    2)The ‘Utbi narration is not an evidence from what we know of Usulal-Fiqh, for evidence is what the Prophet said, did, or agreed to.The ‘Utbi incident – even if we were to assume it authentic –would have no bearing at all with respect to fiqh.

    3) Thenarration does not – anywhere – indicate that ‘Utbi was makingdu’a to the Prophet. All it says is (as Shibli translated –emphasis is mine):

    And it is narrated from al-`Utbi who said, ‘I was sitting at the grave of the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) when a Bedouin approached and said, ‘Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah. I have heard that Allah says {And if when they wronged themselves, they came to you and repented to Allah and the Messenger seeks their pardon they would have found Allah All-Forgiving and Most Merciful.} So I have come to you penitent for my sins seeking your intercession to my Lord.’

    He does not say to the Prophet: ‘OProphet, forgive me’, for that would be Shirk.

    He simply didwhat he thinks he is told to do in the verse: ‘they came to you andrepented to Allah’.

    It is like a person coming to theBlack Stone saying: I have come to you, seeking forgiveness of mysins. Meaning, he is not seeking forgiveness from the stone, orcalling upon the stone to help. He is merely expressing his emotions,while seeking forgiveness from Allah alone.

    Lastly, Gibril Fouad Haddad al-Haqqani is not a reliable source for anything at all, as he is a mushrik, and all of this material that this mushrik gave to you is copied and pasted from Mr. Haddad.
    The Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عايه و سلم) is reported to have said, "No one had ever been given anything better than patience." (Bukhari, Muslim)

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    Default Re: Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)


    Ok he has given the arabic of the hadith in ibn kathirs(rh) kitab :

    وقال الحافظ أبو بكر البيهقي: أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم.
    فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا.
    فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس.
    فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.

    He also quotes from ibn hajr's(rh) books:
    Shaykh al-Islam al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in al-Isaba fi Tamyiz al-Sahaba (3/484) :

    الإصابة - لابن حجر

    8362[ص:274] مالك بن عياض مولى عمر هو الذي يقال له مالك الدار له إدراك وسمع من أبي بكر الصديق وروى عن الشيخين ومعاذ وأبي عبيدة روى عنه أبو صالح السمان وابناه عون وعبدالله ابنا مالك وأخرج البخاري في التاريخ من طريق أبي صالح ذكوان عن مالك الدار أن عمر قال في قحوط المطر يا رب لا آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه وأخرجه بن أبي خيثمة من هذا الوجه مطولا قال أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فأتاه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال له ائت عمر فقل له إنكم مستسقون فعليك الكفين قال فبكى عمر وقال يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه وروينا في فوائد داود بن عمرو الضبي جمع البغوي من طريق عبدالرحمن بن سعيد بن يربوع المخزومي عن مالك الدار قال دعاني عمر بن الخطاب يوما فإذا عنده صرة من ذهب فيها أربعمائة دينار فقال اذهب بهذه إلى أبي عبيدة فذكر قصته وذكر بن سعد في الطبقة الأولى من التابعين في أهل المدينة قال روى عن أبي بكر وعمر وكان معروفا وقال أبو عبيدة ولاه عمر كيلة عيال عمر فلما قدم عثمان ولاه القسم فسمى مالك الدار وقال إسماعيل القاضي عن علي بن المديني كان مالك الدار خازنا لعمر.
    Hafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al Bari (2/495)

    وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.
    وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة، وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق.

    My barelwi friend says:
    it is absurd to claim Ibn Kathir would declare a narration Sahih if he regarded what it contained Shirk and without even commenting on it being Shirk!

    In fact Ibn Hajr even goes to the extent to claim that the man that went to the grave of the Prophet is Bilal ibn al-Harith, by Allah Ibn Hajr would not have done such if according to him this action was Shirk for then he would be suggesting that Bilal practiced Shirk! By Allah Ibn Hajr did not even regard this practice as Bida' for he would not be suggesting that Bilal was on the path of Bida'!

    i know very well there are many arguments refuting the authenticity of the narration and refuting the claim that the man was Bilal, that is not the point here, the point is regarding your claim that just because these scholars have cited this narration does not mean they did not regard it as Shirk! and I am asking is this claim also valid if those scholars have explicitly declared the narration as authentic as well as attributing the incident to a companion of the Meseenger of Allah

    i dont actually know arabic, so if any knowledgeable brothers can please check the above and respond to this.

    jazakaAllah khair

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)

    If you don't know arabic, then why are you playing games with your Tawheed by arguing with a semi-learned Barelwi on such extraordinarily delicate matters?

    This is massively unintelligent.
    The Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عايه و سلم) is reported to have said, "No one had ever been given anything better than patience." (Bukhari, Muslim)

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    Default Re: Did The Sahaba(RA) ask from the grave of the Prophet(SAW)

    If anything the transmission reported by Ibn Kathir shows how the Prophet SAWS cared for and corrected his Companions RA, even from their dreams by informing the 'man' [whether or not it is Bilal bin al-Harith] of the correct way to perform Istisqaa- go to Umar RA and follow his example. Umar RA then proceeded to have al-Abbas RA perform the Du'a.

    So that transmission is not an evidence for doing what Bilal bin al-Harith did BEFORE he was corrected by his dream of the Prophet SAWS and informed of the correct manner of performing Istisqaa.

    If the dream of the man is taken as an evidence [which I do not accept], then it stands to reason that there is more of a right upon those who would do so to also follow the instruction of the Prophet SAWS in the dream.

    Why count the transmission as authentic and argue for following it, but call only to following the actions of the man BEFORE being instructed by the Prophet SAWS?

    Doesn't it make more sense to follow what the man did AFTER being instructed by the Prophet SAWS, especially when it is viewed as a correction of his original acts?

    People cannot see once they have themselves chosen a path of blindness.

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