Islamic Awakening: A forum of e-gheebah?

[Wild Wild West]

It goes without saying that a Muslim should never lie, exaggerate, slander or defame, regardless of where he does it.

However, what about gheebah?

Is it possible to commit gheebah on a public forum?

Members of IA have been accused of this before. I disagree, but would like to hear the brothers and sisters views on this.

[Plum]

walaikum as-salaam

Gheebah is always conducted in public - otherwise you'd only be talking to yourself!!

Talking about public statements is fine. I do find it uncomfortable when people delve into personal traits, etc.

[Saiful Rahman Al Afghany]

I do find it uncomfortable when people delve into personal traits, etc.

Like the fitnah in the Taufeeq Chaudry thread ... Undoubtedly, what Taufeeq said was wrong, but subhan'Allaah! The way we behaved - I still ask Allah to forgive us.

[Shaybani]

I think we all need to improve our conduct.

There are also couple of people who will takhfeer on anything that moves.

[Umm Ahmed]

If something is done or said publicly that's wrong or doubtful , it should be corrected, especially if they are someone that people listen to, and could believing that stance to be correct then fall into wrong doing, but it should be done in a way that's not hurtful to an other and does not transgress their rights . But we are enjoined to forbid the evil and the least of that is to hate it in the heart.

But there are many instances here where some are nothing but scandal mongers, and it's not always true what they say. May Allaah guide them ameen.

[Logic lover]

Refuting the innovators and those harm Muslims as a community and nation - is not part of gheeba.

[Wild Wild West]

I do find it uncomfortable when people delve into personal traits, etc.

I think so far, we are all agreed that if someone is doing wrong in the public sphere, he or she can be addressed publicly.

Also, that we should not pick on peoples private traits, as we are doing this for the sake of Allah.

Any more points, anyone?

[petal]

Assalamu 'alaikum

Bismillah


"r2.0 SLANDER (GHIBA)

r2.1
(Nawawi: ) Slander and talebearing are two of the ugliest and most frequently met with qualities amongst men, few people being safe from them. I have begun with them because of the widespread need to warn people of them.

Slander

r2.2
Slander (ghiba) means to mention anything concerning a person that he would dislike, whether about his body, religion, everyday life, self, disposition, property, son, father, wife, servant, turban, garment, gait, movements, smiling, dissoluteness, frowning, cheerfulness, or anything else connected with him.

Mention means by word, writing, sign, or indicating him with one's eye, hand, head, and so forth.

Body refers to saying such things as that someone is blind, lame, bleary-eyed, bald, short, tall, dark or pale.

Religion includes saying that he is corrupt, a thief, cannot be trusted, is a tyrant, does not care about the prayer, does not watch to avoid filth, does not honor his father, does not spend zakat on what it should be spent on, or does not avoid slandering others.

Everyday life includes saying that his manners are poor; he does not care about others; does not think he owes anyone anything; that he talks, eats, or sleeps too much; or sleeps or sits when he should not.

Father refers to saying such things as that his father is corrupt, his father is an Indian, Nabatean, Africab, cobbler, draper, carpenter, blacksmith, or weaver (if mentioned derogatorily)

Disposition includes saying that he has bad character, is arrogant, a show-off, overhasty, domineering, incapable, faint-hearted, irresponsible, gloomy, dissolute, and so forth.

Clothing means saying such things as that his sleeves are too loose, his garment hangs too low, is dirty, or the like. Other remarks can be judged by the above examples. The determining factor is mentioning about a person what he would not like.

r2.3
As for talebearing (namima), it consists of quoting someone's words to another in a way that worsens relations between them.

Sections r2.4 - r2.15 deal with the evidence of slander and talebearing being unlawful, mimicking, slander in publications, slander by allusion and innuendo, listening to slander, slandering in the heart. For the sake of brevity (and my fingers/hands) I have not typed them.

PERMISSIBLE SLANDER

r2.16
Slander, though unlawful, is sometimes permissible for a lawful purpose, the legitimating factor being that there is some aim countenanced by Sacred Law that is unattainable by other means. This may be for one of six reasons.

REDRESSING GRIEVANCES
r2.17
The first is the redress of grievances. Someone wronged may seek redress from the Islamic ruler, judge, or others with the authority or power to help one against the person who has wronged one. One may say, "So-and-so has wronged me," "done such and such to me," "took such and such of mine," and similar remarks.

ELIMINATING WRONGDOING
r2.18
The second is seeking aid in righting a wrong or correcting a wrongdoer, such as by saying to someone expected to be able set things right, "So-and-so is doing such and such, so warn him not to continue," and the like. The intention in such a case must be to take the measures necessary to eliminate the wrong, for if this is not one's purpose, it is unlawful.

ASKING FOR A LEGAL OPINION
r2.19
The third is asking for a legal opinion, such as by saying to the mufti, "My father [or "brother," or "So-and-so,"] has wronged me by doing such and such. May he do so or not?" "How can I be rid of him," "get what is coming to me," "stop the injustice," and so forth. Or such as saying, "My wife does such and such to me," "My husband does such and such," and the like. This is permissible when necessary, but to be on the safe side it is best to say, "What do you think of a man [or"wife"] who does such and such," and so on, since this accomplishes one's aim without referring to particular people. But it is nevertheless, permissible to indentify a particular person, as is attested to by the hadith in which Hind said,
"O Messenger of Allah, Abu Sufyan is a stingy man..."
and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) did not forbid her.

WARNING MUSLIMS OF EVIL
r2.20
The fourth reason is to warn Muslims of evil and advise them, which may take several forms, including:

(1) Impugning unreliable hadith transmitters or court witnesses, which is permissible by consensus of all Muslims, even obligatory, because of the need for it.

(2) When a person seeks one's advice about marrying into a certain family, entering into a partnership with someone, depositing something for safekeeping with him, accepting such a deposit, or some other transaction with him, it is obligatory for one to tell the person asking what one knows about the other by way of advising him.
If one can accomplish this by merely saying, "Dealing with him is of no advantage to you," "Marrying into the family is not in your interests," "Do not do it," and similar expressions. then one may not elaborate on the individual's shortcomings. But if it cannot be accomplished without explicitly mentioning the individual, one may do so.

(3) When one notices a student of Sacred Law going to learn from a teacher who is guilty of reprehensible innovations in religious matters (bid'a) or who is corrupt, and one apprehends harm to the student thereby, one must advise him and explain how the teacher really is. It is necessary in such a case that one intend to give sincere counsel. Mistakes are sometimes made in this, as the person warning another may be motivated by envy, which the Devil has duped him into believing is heartfelt advice and compassion, so one must be aware of this.

(4) And when there is someone in a position of responsibility who is not doing the job as it should be done, because of being unfit for it, corrupt, inattentive, or the like, one must mention this to the person with authority over him so he can remove him and find another to do the job properly, or be aware of how he is so as to deal with him as he should be dealt with and not be deluded by him, to urge him to either improve or else be replaced.

SOMEONE UNCONCERNED WITH CONCEALING THEIR DISOBEDIENCE
r2.21
A fifth reason that permits slander is when the person is making no effort to conceal his corruption or involvement in reprehensible innovation (bid'a), such as someone who openly drinks wine, confiscates others' property, gathers taxes uncountenanced by Sacred Law, collects money wrongfully, or perpetrates other falsehoods, in which cases it is permissible to speak about what he is unconcerned to conceal, but unlawful to mention his other faults unless there is some other valid reason that permits it, of those we have discussed.

IDENTIFICATION
r2.22
The sixth reason is to identify someone. When a person is known by a nickname such as "the Bleary-eyed," "the Lame," "the Deaf," "the Blind," "the Cross-eyed," or similar, it is permissible to refer to him by that name if one's intention is to identify him. It is unlawful to do so by way of pointing out his deficiencies. And if one can identify him by some other means, it is better.

r2.23
These then, are six reasons Islamic scholars mention that permits slander in the above cases (al Adhkar (y102), 455-69)"

Source: Reliance of the Traveller pages 730 - 740, extracts typed in full except where stated (my poor hands )

Perhaps of relevance to this thread is the bit where it says "Mention means by word, writing, sign, or indicating him with one's eye, hand, head, and so forth."

[petal]

My £3.76:

Things said in public should be allowed to be discussed publicly. There are ways of doing it. Throwing mad tantrums, sensationalising, empty rhetoric, etc... don't get the point across as well as a simple, well constructed, referenced, argument.

E.g.

Me, I am so-and-so (to give some credibility to your point of view otherwise why should anybody listen to you, provide a little background especially if commenting on a field in which you have a special interest in and therefore a higher level of knowledge than the average person) and I would like to share my thoughts on xy&z. The seriousness of xy&z apples, oranges, pineapples, avocadoes, should not be belittled because of blah blah blah. I thought to share this with my dear brothers and sisters in Islam.

Then you leave the door open for discussion, leaving the ego in the dungeon with the pet gimp.

I get totally put off by "ROOOAAARR! I am a big tiger and listen to me roaaarrr!"

[Abuz Zubair]

On occasions backbiting has certainly occurred. I think it is a communal duty to stop it when any of us notices it.

However, often people also consider legitimate criticisms as backbiting.

TC is a different issue altogether. One cannot expect him to come out with horrendous statements like that and then for people to deal with him respectfully. There is a line one must not cross, and that is the line of showing open support and loyalty to enemies of Islam and Muslims. When Hamza Yusuf did that after 9/11, we had no problem in destroying him. But when it is TC, the rules are different, and somehow he just made a mistake.