Khalid Yasin with Omar Bakri?

[Suhaib Jobst]

Subhanallah - There is absolutely no justification whatsoever on making takfir of Shaykh Bin Baaz due to his fatwaa on letting the American forces into the peninsula, as you mentioned this was an issue of Ijtihad.

Notice I began by saying that I don't make takfeer of Shaykh Ibn Baz (rahimahullah). But at the same time, I see no reason why we are so strongly against those who do make takfeer of him, yet we ourselves have no qualms when it comes to other individuals in the same position, outside the Jazirat.

'Omar Bakri is a mujtahid? Please, that it is ridiculous thing say.

I never said he was a mujtahid. At the most, Omar Bakri is an Islamic lecturer and writer, although not a scholar like others. But I meant ijtihad in the sense of using the correct Islamic evidences and making a ruling based upon that.

Takfeer is not restricted to the scholars, but anyone with some knowledge of the rulings of Takfeer can make it when the situation calls for it. I have read Al-Ghurabaa's article making Takfeer of Ibn Baz and while I personally disagree with it, I respect the basis of such a ruling.

Is takfir such a light matter to people nowadays?

No, but the consequences of not making Takfeer are likewise grave. When someone commits an act or utters a statement, which nullifies their Iman, and the proper Islamic evidences (Qur'an, Hadith, Ijma of the Salaf and the 'Ulama) makes clear such a ruling, then it becomes necessary to make Takfeer.

Failure to do so will often lead to the very real disease called Irjaa. The one who makes excuses in not making Takfeer could take on some attributes from the Munafiqeen, they will compromise the prerequisites of Tawheed, which are to disbelieve in the Tawagheet and to make bara'ah and openly express your hatred and enmity to the followers of the Tawagheet, and their sense of Al-Walaa wal-Baraa has marked deficiencies.

But the scholars differ as to what degree that the mushrikeen are banned for the peninsula (as to which areas, etc).

Yes, but the hadeeth is clear. Some even go further than the ruling. Imam as-Shafi'ee (rahimahullah) said it was haraam for the Kuffar to be even in the Red Sea region!

I agree, but where is the out right kufr involved?

Not on this issue, but those who make takfeer of Shaykh Ibn Baz (rahimahullah) do so based on his connection to the Taghut Salool regime, which gave him his position. My point was, why do brothers make takfeer of the government scholars in Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere but when it comes to "Saudi" Arabia, why is even questioning these scholars off-limits?

Rather I am saying that takfir is a very grave matter, not something to be taken lightly. Again, is what ibn Baaz did kufr?

Like I mentioned earlier, the consequences of not making takfeer are also grave. And for the last time, I personally don't make takfeer of Ibn Baz, I continue to take his rulings on contemporary fiqh issues. I respect and honor this scholar, although I obviously have many serious disagreements with him.

But at the same time, I respect the ijtihad of those who do make takfeer of him. I read the articles with an open-mind and realized their takfeer is based upon daleel. Remember that takfeer is often a matter of ikhtilaf. I believe it is such in this case; the article calling him such brought forward evidences from Islam and applied it based on Ibn Baz's deeds and statements, although I personally don't carry the same view.

I explained why, he is someone who is a media-holic and says one thing and then when confronted about it, says something else entirely.

I believe he has changed and I am willing to give both him and his followers the benefit of the doubt, that they have indeed been guided to Ahlus-Sunnah. I have benefitted from some of his articles and their forum is likewise beneficial.

And Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala) knows best.

[Daniel]

When did I make takfir of the government scholars in Egypt or Syria?

[knowrass]

But at the same time, I respect the ijtihad of those who do make takfeer of him. I read the articles with an open-mind and realized their takfeer is based upon daleel. Remember that takfeer is often a matter of ikhtilaf. I believe it is such in this case; the article calling him such brought forward evidences from Islam and applied it based on Ibn Baz's deeds and statements, although I personally don't carry the same view.

takfeer a matter of ikhtilaaf?

[Suhaib Jobst]

When did I make takfir of the government scholars in Egypt or Syria?

I'm not saying you did. I was bringing up examples of what many brothers actually do, but when it comes to those in "Saudi" Arabia, then for some reason they are untouchable.

takfeer a matter of ikhtilaaf?

In this case. The original article which made takfeer of Shaykh Ibn Baz (rahimahullah) mentioned it is their ijtihad, they do not force others to make this takfeer and those who don't are not necessarily wrong either.

[Abuz Zubair]

Takfeer of Shaykh Ibn Baz? None is guilty of it but a zindiq or a complete jahil.

Sometimes people haven't a clue how heavy their statements are.

And as I have said before, these shameful views are not a result of certain ideology. Rather this bankrupt ideology is a product of certain mindset and psychology, similar to that of the khawarij. The Prophet has already declared that extremists are perished. Their fate is sealed. Either they will become modernist sell-outs, stop practising Islam, or become Mushriks like sasjamal.

As far as OBM is concerned, that the folks in Britain who have dealt with him, met him and discussed with him know him 100 times better than those of us on the other side of the pond, who would dance to the tune of any old DJ who would sing Jihad.

[Suhaib Jobst]

And as I have said before, these shameful views are not a result of certain ideology. Rather this bankrupt ideology is a product of certain mindset and psychology, similar to that of the khawarij.

I see your point and perhaps I did not examine the issue as clearly as I should have. While I never personally agreed with the takfeer, I was willing to accept the opinion of those who did. But what I really don't like, is how many brothers make the scholars of "Saudi" Arabia off-limits, whereas those in other lands, anything goes.

Their fate is sealed. Either they will become modernist sell-outs, stop practising Islam, or become Mushriks like sasjamal.

I seek refuge in Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala). But I would like to say, how many of the Sufi/"Traditional Muslim" types have left Islam? I believe the number is far greater than the ones you mentioned. Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala) guides whomever He wills, and the converse is true as well, due to their own deeds.

As far as OBM is concerned, that the folks in Britain who have dealt with him, met him and discussed with him know him 100times better than those of us on the other side of the pond, who would dance to the tune of any old DJ who would sing Jihad.

So I can't talk about Muslim figures in Britain? But is this not the Ummah, with no boundaries? Should we not be concerned with the situation of Muslims in other countries, and prepared to either defend or oppose a certain individual, whenever the Deen calls for it?

If we use your rule, then I guess you and others in Britain can't say anything about Muslim figures here in America, which is ridiculous of course. We are all Muslims; we benefit from each other, whenever we have proofs from Islam to share. The boundaries are based upon the abstract Nation-States, and has no place in an Islam where Muslims, irregardless of where they live, are brothers and sisters.

So Jihad can be compared to a song and those who call for it are DJs? I seek refuge in Allah! The bottom line is, I have defended OBM because I believe he is sincere and he should not be judged based on his past situation. I recognize your statements about him and I believe you are right, but I also believe he has changed, based on some of his articles and also their forum. Allahu 'aalim.

[Abuz Zubair]

While I never personally agreed with the takfeer, I was willing to accept the opinion of those who did

This is enough for a person to be considered misguided.

I am sorry if I sound like talking down to you, but people need to know their limits. Some of us have just come on to the deen from jahiliya, and yet here we are, even contemplating takfeer on someone who has dedicated his entire life to the service of this deen and was one of the most leading scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah of our time! People really need to know their worth.

And takfeer is on an issue which can be easily argued for legally speaking. As far as its political consequences are concerned, then no matter how harmful they might be, it does not have any affect on the faith of the mujtahid who gave his fatwa. What is astounding is some jahil who does not even know Arabic, and probably cannot even read the Quran, or pronounce it properly, should evaluate a fiqhi position, without knowing the fiqh of tahara, or how to wash his backside in the toilet, and then using that as a basis to make takfeer on someone as famous and recognised as Shaykh Ibn Baz.

This is sickness.

I seek refuge in Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala). But I would like to say, how many of the Sufi/"Traditional Muslim" types have left Islam?

Forget about them and concentrate on yourself bro... I have already witnessed on numerous accounts your willingness to support the most extreme opinions and the most extreme people, regardless of what the Sharia has to say. And note my words, unless Allah has mercy on you and you take yourself to account, submit to the Sharia wholeheartedly, your extremism will eventually consume you internally. This is a promise from the Prophet: extremists are destroyed. Juhayman was destroyed. The Khawarij were destroyed, the Shia were destroyed, and I can continue to name sects after sects who were destroyed by extremism.

So I can't talk about Muslim figures in Britain? But is this not the Ummah, with no boundaries? Should we not be concerned with the situation of Muslims in other countries, and prepared to either defend or oppose a certain individual, whenever the Deen calls for it?

Understand well what I am trying to say.

I have read posts after posts and discussed OBM in various threads ON THIS forum... I have explained in detail my personal encounter with him, as well as that of others and his habitual history of lying. We in Britain have known him long before you had known what Islam was.

If you do not want to believe in our experiences of this conman as we have mentioned on these forums, then you are free to reject our side of story. But then do NOT come here and tell us that we have wronged OBM or that he is sincere, etc, etc.

It has nothing to do with me being in the UK and you in the US. It has everything to do with respecting your own experience with this clown (which is next to nothing) and comparing it to our years of experience with him.

So Jihad can be compared to a song and those who call for it are DJs? I seek refuge in Allah!

Always, you misunderstood me. What I mean is that Jihad to some hotheaded youngsters is like a song, or a cult, and the one who cries Jihad the loudest is the DJ. You guys are too young, too gullible, and too inexperienced in this area to know who is genuine, who is dodgy and who is a spy.

[Suhaib Jobst]

I take back my attitude towards the takfeer of Shaykh Bin Baz (rahimahullah). I disagree with some of his fataawa and statements against the Mujahideen, but nevertheless there is no excuse for takfeer against him and I realize that now.

And note my words, unless Allah has mercy on you and you take yourself to account, submit to the Sharia wholeheartedly, your extremism will eventually consume you internally. This is a promise from the Prophet: extremists are destroyed.

I don't see how I'm "extreme". I am very zealous in Islam and when I read something which brings forth evidences from Qur'an, Sunnah, and the Ijma of the Salaf, then I try to implement it and make that my stance.

Juhayman was destroyed. The Khawarij were destroyed, the Shia were destroyed, and I can continue to name sects after sects who were destroyed by extremism.

You misunderstood the point I made about Juhayman. We disagree with his claim that his brother-in-law was the Mahdi and we disagree strongly with his action in Masjid al-Haram. But he wrote some good words about Tawheed and the Millah of Ibrahim and Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). Are we not to weigh the good and the bad, and consider the former when it is in conformity to Qur'an and Sunnah and we can derive some benefits from it?

I have read posts after posts and discussed OBM in various threads ON THIS forum... I have explained in detail my personal encounter with him, as well as that of others and his habitual history of lying.
We in Britain have known him long before you had known what Islam was.

I read about your personal encounter with him and I agreed fully with it. But I believe, based on hearing some of his words and reading some articles from him, and browsing their forum, they have repented from this deviance. I could be wrong and in the end, I follow Islam and not personalities. Allahu 'aalim.

And the fact that you either come from a Muslim background or were Muslim longer than I, cannot be used as a proof in itself. Although I do see your point about the personal knowledge Briton Muslims have about this man and perhaps I should consider it before my emotions.

Always, you misunderstood me. What I mean is that Jihad to some hotheaded youngsters is like a song, or a cult, and the one who cries Jihad the loudest is the DJ. You guys are too young, too gullible, and too inexperienced in this area to know who is genuine, who is dodgy and who is a spy.

I knew what you meant, but the analogy does not fit with these Muslims. I may only be 21, but we can bring up many evidences to prove age has no significance in Islam as far as this is concerned. We know the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) entrusted the command in one ghazwah to a teenager.

We also have a narration from Imam Malik (rahimahullah) where a little boy reminded him to pray tahiyatul masjid, he stood up and prayed since he had simply forgotten and was humble enough to take evidence from any trustworthy Muslim.

Believe me, I am not "gullible". I spent a few years first as an "Ikhwanee", then as a Madkhalee. It was the ignorance of the first and the extremities of the latter which made me question, what was the truth? I researched the important issues of today, from an Islamic viewpoint, and have come to believe in the Salafi Jihadi understanding of Islam, based on the evidences so clear in the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Ijma of the Salaf.

Perhaps you can consider me an "extremist", but I don't make taqleed of any hizb or personality. I follow what the evidences say, masha'Allah.

In any case, I will be more careful when it comes to Omar Bakri Mohammad in the future and let those of you who know him better tell me about his condition. So you believe his repentance is not sincere? Also, if I may ask a personal question, when I was a follower of Madkhalee, I remember reading something SP wrote about you and other "Qutubees" in Britain. Why do they call you "al-Azzami"?

[Abuz Zubair]

I don't see how I'm "extreme".

bro... some people have tendency of going to extremes in whatever the follow. It is important that one looks at himself in the mirror and ask himself an honest question: 'Do I have the tendency of going to extremes in whatever I follow?'

The reason I say this is due to your past Nazi leanings in hatred for the Jews, and then following the most extreme of all opinions in Islam. This is just an observation on my part, and I could be wrong. But it is for you to honestly consider these things and evaluate your own nature.

Re Juhayman's writings... I haven't come across any... have you?

I read about your personal encounter with him and I agreed fully with it. But I believe, based on hearing some of his words and reading some articles from him, and browsing their forum, they have repented from this deviance.

Then you haven't read or properly understood my encounter with him or that of others because we are all discussing OBM post the so-called 'repentance'. The major problem with him is not that he is/was a deviant. The major problem is that he is a liar and a conman, and this is what we have experienced for years. He has not acknowledged a single lie of his, and it seems from the outset, he is on a mission to destroy Islam.

It is not to do with age alone. It is more to do with experience. And of course, the younger you are, the more inexperienced you are. And come on, you are only twenty-one and there is A LOT - and I mean A LOT - for you to learn and experience.

[NAveed]

Without doubt he is a liar.

His agenda is unclear.

He tried to push very extreme and vicious ideas by quoting the seerah out of context-
At the time he was straitjacketed by the shafi madhab so he could only use ridiculous ideas to some extent-he had to produce shafi aqwaal.

but then he wanted to say crazy things...Things no shafi scholar would allow.
So what did he do
He did a paul- on the road to damascus..Ive become salafi...now i dont need to follow scholars...Its quran and sunnah directly...and guess what..
everyone who disagrees with my ideas on jihad is kaafir
Lets kill everyone based on my limited quotes...

What a strange man.
What is very strange is some people actually follow him despite seeing him for years.