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Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

This is a discussion on Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects within the Islam in General forums, part of the Main Topics category; These people are the Zanadiqah of our time, the Malahida like Ibn Saba'. Under the garb of being anti-Jew or ...

  1. #31
    Formerly - Abu_Abdallah
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    These people are the Zanadiqah of our time, the Malahida like Ibn Saba'. Under the garb of being anti-Jew or Zionism, they are in fact the hypocrite Jews who try to undermine Islam.

    Curse be upon the unbelievers.
    مَنْ لَمْ يُنْصِفْ خُصُوْمَهُ فِي الاحْتِجَاجِ عَلَيْهِمْ ، لَمْ يُقْبَلْ بَيَانُهُ ، وَأَظْلَمَ بُرْهَانُهُ

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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu_Abdallah View Post
    These people are the Zanadiqah of our time, the Malahida like Ibn Saba'. Under the garb of being anti-Jew or Zionism, they are in fact the hypocrite Jews who try to undermine Islam.

    Curse be upon the unbelievers.
    Ameen Akhi

  3. #33
    Dunker of Flies abdulmuhsee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Does he really believe that hadith didn't exist until after Spain was conquered?

    I don't see why it's a big deal that there's three versions of the last sermon; depending on who relates what they heard, there's going to be a difference in what order they say things in and how they relate it.

    It also simply doesn't make sense that the Qur'an is complete without ahadith, simply because there is no way a person could possibly know about the events the Qur'an is referring to without it, and no way to understand what abrogates what either. Like in Al-Baqarah, where one verse says a woman must wait such-and-such time after her husband's death while a few verses later it says the same thing but with a different amount. There is no way to understand this without hadith.

    I also wish hadith were more foolproof and everyone relating them had flawless memories, but the fact that there are different accounts of the same story, which basically tell the same thing with difference in names, order, etc., proves that hadith aren't 'made-up' and are actual people relating what they saw and heard. I highly doubt two different people would give the exact same account of what happened in a movie they just saw, much less saw years ago.

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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Islamic law as we know it today cannot be said to have existed as yet in the time of Muhammad; it came gradually into existence during the first century of Islam. It was during this period that nascent Islamic society created its own legal institutions. The ancient Arab system of arbitration, and Arab customary law in general, continued under the first successors of Muhammad, the caliphs of Medina. In their function as supreme rulers and administrators, the early caliphs acted to a great extent as the lawgivers of the Islamic community; during the whole of this first century the administrative and legislative functions of the Islamic government cannot be separated. But the object of this administrative legislation was not to modify the existing customary law beyond what the Qur'an had done; it was to organize the newly conquered territories for the benefit of the Arabs, and to assure the viability of the enormously expanded Islamic state. The first caliphs did not, for instance, hesitate to repress severely any manifestation of disloyalty, and even to punish with flogging the authors of satirical poems directed against rival tribes, a recognized form of poetic expression which, however, might have threatened the internal security of the state. This particular decision did not become part of Islamic law, but other enactments of the caliphs of Medina gained official recognition, not as decislons of the caliphs, but because they could be subsumed under oneor the other of the official sources of Islamic law which later theory came to recognize. The introduction of stoning to death as a punishment for unchastity under certain conditions is one such enactment. In the theory of Islamic law, its authority derives from alleged commands of the Prophet; there also exists an alleged verse of the Qur'an to this effect which, however, does not form part of the official text and must be considered spurious. Traditions reporting alleged acts and sayings of the Prophet came into use as proof-texts in law not earlier than the end of the first century of Islam, and the spurious verse of the Qur'an represents an earlier effort to establish the validity of the penal enactment in question. That the need of this kind of validation was felt at all, shows how exceptional a phenomenon the legislation of Muhammad had been in the eyes of his contemporaries.

    The political schisms which rent the Islamic community when it was still less than forty years old, led to the secession of the two dissident, and later 'heterodox', movements of the Kharijites and of the Shi'a, but they did not lead to significant new developments in Islamic law; the essentials of a system of religious law did not as yet exist and the political theory of the Shi'a, which more than anything else might have been expected to lead to the elaboration of quite a different system of law, was developed only later. In fact, those two groups took over Islamic law from the 'orthodox' or Sunni community as it was being developed there, making only such essentially superficial modifications as were required by their particular political and dogmatic tenets. In one respect, however, the exclusive, and therefore ' sectarian ', character of the two secessionist movements influenced not so much the positive contents as the emphasis and presentation of their doctrines of religious law; the law of the Shi'a is dominated by the concept of taqiyya, 'dissimulation' (a practice which, it is true, was forced upon them by the persecutions which they had to suffer), and by the distinction between esoteric and exoteric doctrines in some of their schools of thought; and that of the Kharijites is dominated by the complementary concepts of walaya, 'solidarity', and bara'a, 'exclusion', 'excommunication'


    The need of creating some kind of theoretical justification for what so far had been an instinctive reliance on the opinions of the majority, led, from the first decades of the second/eighth century onwards, to the living tradition being retrojected, and to its being ascribed to some of the great figures of the past. This process, too, began in Kufa, where the stage of doctrine achieved in the time of Hammad b. Abi Sulayman (d. I20/738) was attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i (d. 95-6/7I3-I5). The Medinese followed suit and retrojected their own teaching to a number of ancient authorities who had died about the turn of the century, some of whom later became known as the 'seven jurists of Medina'. At the same time as the doctrine of the school of Kufa was retrospectively attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i, a similar body of doctrine was directly connected with the very beginnings of Islam in Kufa by being attributed to Ibn Mas'ud, a Companion of the Prophet who had come to live in that city, and Ibrahim al-Nakha'i became the main transmitter of that body of doctrine, too. In the same way, other Companions of the Prophet became the eponyms of the schools of Medina and of Mecca. One further step in the search for a solid theoretical foundation of the doctrine of the ancient schools was taken in 'Iraq, very early in the second/eighth century, when the term ' Sunna of the Prophet ' was transferred from its political and theological into a legal context, and identified with the sunna, the ideal practice of the local community and the corresponding doctrine of its scholars. This term, which was taken over by the school of Syria, expressed the axiom that the practice of the Muslims derived from the practice of the Prophet, but it did not as yet imply the existence of positive information in the form of ' Traditions ' (Hadith), that the Prophet by his words or acts had in fact originated or approved any particular practice. It was not long before these Traditions, too, came into existence, and the persons who put them into circulation were the Traditionists.

    Joseph Schacht-origins of Islamic law

    So it seems even secular historians have discovered something fishy about hadiths and Shariah law of the sects. As time passes, traditions stretches backwards. By the time the Muwatta of Imam Malik came, the need to trace things back to early Medina took hold, then Shafi came claiming authority for the prophet is the only authority and is a revelation along with the Koran and later Bukhari took it further by tracing everything to the prophet himself therefore finishing off Al Shafi's effort. In doing so they ensured complete authority for their doctrine. But its a fictitous doctrine that was developed in the later Ummayds era and soon the truth will be exposed. The Koran will come back.

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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Joseph Schacht-origins of Islamic law
    Atleast you are not pretending that you are not using Jewish Imams to back you up.
    Go ahead and follow Schacht the Jew, leave us alone to be muslims ,
    To you you religion and To us ours.

    May Allah curse Schacht and all those who follow him.

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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by abu hafs View Post
    Atleast you are not pretending that you are not using Jewish Imams to back you up.
    Go ahead and follow Schacht the Jew, leave us alone to be muslims ,
    To you you religion and To us ours.

    May Allah curse Schacht and all those who follow him.
    Ah, thats a Koranic verse. Only problem is the Sunnah does not acknowledge to you your way to me mine. As far as jews, Schacht was not Jewish but anyways I have some good info regarding similarities, actually carbon copies, of Judaic Talmudic laws and the fiqh Al Shafi claimed to have come up with followed by the Sunni sect:

    Islam and Judiasm - Influences Contrasts and Parallels

  7. #37
    Senior Member ibn 'abd al-jabbaar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianRevert View Post
    I am mujahid.
    I am humble to those whom i am in agreement with.
    I am stern with those who i am in disagreement with.
    So you have been Muslim for about 6 months, and you presume that you have everything figured out?
    قد قيل للشيخ عبد القادر الجيلي قدس الله روحه هل كان لله ولي على غير اعتقاد أحمد بن حنبل فقال لا كان ولا يكون (درء التعارض 5/5)و

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    Senior Member ibn 'abd al-jabbaar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigmo View Post
    So it seems even secular historians have discovered something fishy about hadiths and Shariah law of the sects. As time passes, traditions stretches backwards. By the time the Muwatta of Imam Malik came, the need to trace things back to early Medina took hold, then Shafi came claiming authority for the prophet is the only authority and is a revelation along with the Koran and later Bukhari took it further by tracing everything to the prophet himself therefore finishing off Al Shafi's effort. In doing so they ensured complete authority for their doctrine. But its a fictitous doctrine that was developed in the later Ummayds era and soon the truth will be exposed. The Koran will come back.
    Schacht's thesis, while valued, is not widely accepted in academic scholarship - it remains on the fringe and has long been discarded. For a scholarly Muslim response, you can refer to Prof Azami's On Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence, in which he catalogues the faults, errors and misrepresentations in Schacht's text.
    قد قيل للشيخ عبد القادر الجيلي قدس الله روحه هل كان لله ولي على غير اعتقاد أحمد بن حنبل فقال لا كان ولا يكون (درء التعارض 5/5)و

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    Senior Member ibn 'abd al-jabbaar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by AustralianRevert View Post
    How do i obey the messenger if he is dead?
    So as soon as the Prophet passed, you think all the Companions thought: Great! Now we don't have to obey previous commands anymore!

    Fact is, they preserved and in some cases wrote down his commands because they understood that to obey the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is to obey Allah.

    Something I wrote elsewhere:

    Allah the Most High says:

    24:51 The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.

    24:52 It is such as obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end),

    24:53 They swear their strongest oaths by Allah that, if only thou wouldst command them, they would leave (their homes). Say: "Swear ye not; Obedience is (more) reasonable; verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."

    24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

    Similarly, He says:

    4:65 But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

    59:7 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

    There are numerous verses which command obedience to Allah and His Messenger, and I have quoted but a few. Some, such as the ones above, directly specify obedience to the Prophet (saws), such as "If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance." or "But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them..."

    Obedience to God's Messenger is not unique, for Allah sent prophets throughout history who commanded obedience, as the Qur'an notes in various places (3:50, 26:108 onwards, and so on) where they all said the same thing: "Fear Allah and obey me."

    The Qur'anic obligation to obey the Prophet in what he obliged and forbade applies to all Muslims. It doesn't make sense that the companions would follow what Muhammad commanded and forbade, and then abandon it the day he (صلى الله عليه وسلم) died. It also doesn't make sense that we require anything obliged or forbidden by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) to be mentioned specifically in the Qur'an, for Allah already specifies obedience to the Prophet as an extension of obedience to Allah, and because He tells us to accept what the Messenger gives us and to refrain from what he forbids us.

    On this basis, we can conclude that Allah mandates obedience to the Prophet, and that by obeying the Prophet you have obeyed Allah.

    Secondly,

    There are several verses which indicate that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) received revelation and instructions which were not part of the Qur'an itself. One example is when Allah says:

    2:143 Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is full of pity, Merciful toward mankind.

    2:144 We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces when ye pray) toward it. Lo! those who have received the Scripture know that (this Revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

    As you can see, these verses refer to when the Musims originally prayed towards Jerusalem, and then Allah changed the direction from Jerusalem to the Ka'aba.

    Now, this is the key point: Allah says "And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed..."

    This command that Allah had previously issued about praying towards Jerusalem is not found anywhere in the Qur'an. This demonstrates several things:

    1) Allah revealed to the Prophet commands which were not explicitly part of the Qur'anic text, and it was the Prophet's job to relay them to the believers, and it was the believers' job to obey.
    2) The believers obeyed the Prophet in praying towards Jerusalem even though there was no Qur'anic verse instructing them to pray in that direction, because they understood that by obeying the Prophet they were obeying Allah.

    Another example is:

    66:3 When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."

    This is extremely clear. Allah mentions the time when He informed the Prophet of a matter, yet this specific piece of revelation is not part of the Qur'an. There are several other examples demonstrating this, I have mentioned only two.

    On this basis we may draw several conclusions:

    a) Obedience to the Prophet has been commanded by Allah, and is mandatory.

    b) A number of Allah's commands to the Prophet were transmitted without being part of the Qur'anic text. When the Prophet relayed them to the believers, they had to obey. These commands, though they had no mention in the text, were divinely inspired.
    Last edited by ibn 'abd al-jabbaar; 12th July 2009 at 02:26 PM.
    قد قيل للشيخ عبد القادر الجيلي قدس الله روحه هل كان لله ولي على غير اعتقاد أحمد بن حنبل فقال لا كان ولا يكون (درء التعارض 5/5)و

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    Anti-Defeatist Tuwaylib's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quranist rise and end of Sunni/Shia sects

    Quote Originally Posted by ibn 'abd al-jabbaar View Post
    So you have been Muslim for about 6 months, and you presume that you have everything figured out?
    So how long is a new Muslim considered 'new' before certain rules apply to them.

    قَال

    :مُحَمَّد بْن بَدْرِ اَلدِّينِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اَلْقَادِرِ بْنِ بَلْبَانَ الْخَزْرَجِيُّ اَلْقَادِرِيُّ, اَلْحَنْبَلِيُّ

    اِجْعَلُوا اَلنَّوَافِلَ كَالْفَرَائِضِ, وَالْمَعَاصِي كَالْكُفْرِ, وَالشَّهَوَاتِ كَالسُّمِّ, وَمُخَالَطَةَ اَلنَّاسِ كَالنَّارِ, وَالْغِذَاءَ كَالدَّوَاءِ

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