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www.inside-ht.com

This is a discussion on www.inside-ht.com within the Islam in General forums, part of the Main Topics category; As-salamu alaykum. Just to let you know, ex-Hizb ut-Tahrir brothers have produced this new website which is having new material ...

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    As-salamu alaykum. Just to let you know, ex-Hizb ut-Tahrir brothers have produced this new website which is having new material added all the time. Insha'allah, it should be a good resource for those interested in finding out objective information about Hizb ut Tahrir (i.e. from people who've actually been in the group).





    www.inside-ht.com


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    as-Salaamu 'alaikum brother,
    JK for the link, but don't mind me saying this, I think we are losing focus.
    No doubt HTs have major heresies in Aqida, and I still stand by the articles I wrote over 5 years ago. But, is it the right moment for us to be neglecting areas where our efforts are needed and focusing instead on issues that could be counterproductive to us all in the current atmosphere?



    Bearing in mind that HT has recently come under great scrutiny by the government for its political views (more than its actions), the views we all share irrespective of our background (Ikhwanis, Salafis, Hanafis, etc). Are we to tow the line with the government by attacking HT from within, as it is being attacked from the outside? Or are we to defend them and make sure they survive the political onslaught by the government?



    Moreover, we cannot ignore the fact that HTs have changed a lot since OBM was expelled (or resigned, whichever version you prefer), and have begun to positively contribute to our issues. Shabina Begum is one case where HTs alone championed our cause as Muslims in Britain, whereas other organisations either remained neutral, or some even critical of HT over this issue.



    I personally found it disgusting to read Sara Joseph’s article condemning the High Court verdict in favour of Shabina Begum. Not only because she is only capable of writing utter nonsense, which suggests that she’s better off reverting to Christianity; but also because the moment at which it was written, where HTs and Shabina Begum needed communal support, because her case sets a precedence for us all.



    After 7/7 (and 911), their press release (and IHRC) seemed to portray the most balanced approach amongst all the press releases and comments issues by the apologetics (JIMAS, MCB, etc etc), or the loonies (al-Ghuraba, Muhajiroun, etc). Surely, they deserve the credit for that.



    What became clear after 7/7 is that Islam urgently needs recognition (and not acceptance) as a political alternative to the right and the left, and commendably I see the HTs taking the initiative by lobbying. Although, their efforts are primarily geared towards saving their party, but on the other hand, no doubt it is a great contribution to the Islamists in the West.



    The question is: What have the ‘Salafis’ ever contributed to the society (apart from the endless cycle of Dawah, circles and conferences)? How many schools did they open up (until very recently)? Why can’t the ‘Salafis’ even write a sensible press-release that will not embarrass us all? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to present the political side of Islam to the West? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to campaign for any of the issues of concern to Muslims in the UK? And therefore, are the ‘Salafis’ in a position to discredit other groups for whatever contribution they may be making?



    I would reiterate that I am not justifying the errors of HTs, but all I am saying is that there is a time and place for everything and we must focus on our priorities as a community.


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    Walaykum salam. The tone and content of your response are an indicator of HT's insidious victory and pending emergence as the voice of Britain's Muslims...and this is exactly why we need this website at this time. Let's not forget that HT's great-grandfathers, the Mu'tazilah,*******preceded them in this when they eventually ruled the Islamic world and oppressed the ulema as HT would do if we continue to take this contradictory soft approach to them, saying on the one hand their beliefs are from those of the 72 sects in the Fire, and on the other hand, we become their main defenders. There is a 3rd way between collaboration with the kuffar and collaboration with the cult - this is exactly the point which the defenders of HT today are missing. Insha'allah, I will respond to your comments more fully later today.

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    Here are some of the questions as to why this site was necessary:



    http://www.inside-ht.com/why.htm


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    http://www.inside-ht.com/insider_angle/new_mcb.htm

    IS HTB MUTATING INTO THE MCB?

    HT PAST

    HIZB UT-TAHRIR (HT) or Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain (HTB) as they are now known in the UK were once known for their stubbornness to the point of stupidity; now they have become the compromise kings of Islamic groups. Ah yes, how I******* remember those heady days of the early 1990s when one of the members who recruited me to the Party tested me and my friends on the Islamic evidence which prohibited compromise. We can all remember the time when at one point they were totally against marches, totally against giving politicians platforms in mosques, totally against “unity” conferences, totally against marching with non-Muslims. We also remember their derogatory remarks against the Sunni ulema across the world, labelling them agents of the non-Muslims - people who are “silent” when it comes to the truth.

    But recently, some views have changed. Why?

    TONY BLAIR'S SPEECH

    EVER SINCE Tony Blair gave his anti-terrorism speech wherein he mentioned banning Hizb ut-Tahrir, we have seen HT literally do anything to save their own party skin. Gone are the chants of "man-made law" being the cause of all evil as the Party seeks to fight any attempt to ban them through the British courts (http://www.hizb.org.uk/pressnew/inde...585_0_45_0_M95 accessed 5/3/06). If HT do not recognise the legitimacy of man-made law, why must they seek to legitimise their exist through the vehicle of man-made law?

    We now see HT chairing talks in mosques with politicians. For example, senior Party member Taji Mustapha in Luton with members of the Liberal Democrats and Conservative Parties. ( But wait, didn’t HT say it's wrong to give politicians platforms in mosques?)

    "DEMOCRACY IS HYPOCRISY". OH REALLY?

    Democracy used to be hypocrisy in HT's eyes. Now their official website proudly displays photos of grovelling expeditions to the UK Home Office begging Charles Clarke not to ban them (http://www.hizb.org.uk/ecoverage/ind...33_0_47_0_M113 accessed 5/3/06). Perhaps most amusing of all is their recent address to the home of modern democracy itself: the two Houses of Parliament. The official HT Britain website shamelessly flaunts its U-turn on their homepage (http://www.hizb.org.uk/ accessed 5/3/06) but what they do not tell us on their website is what Clare Short told journalists:

    "Hizb ut-Tahrir have been approaching parliamentarians to explain who they are and what they believe. Following such a meeting in my constituency, I volunteered to facilitate a meeting at the House of Commons so parliamentarians can decide for themselves whether the organisation should be banned." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...720993,00.html accessed 5/3/06)

    HT PRESENT

    Nowadays, in response to the UK government's hostility, we no longer see the HT members hand out leaflets although they used to claim that the caller to Islam should not fear prison. In chapter 3 of the first book new recruits to HT study, Nizam ul Islam, the shabaab are told they must stand for the truth even against the masses. How then do HT explain how HT spokesman Abdul Wahid appeared on British television's Channel 4 and denied having saying that voting was not permissible? It is hardly a hidden fact that HT oppose voting in democratic elections. Those weasel words may fool the kuffar but we Muslims know better. In a similar vein Imran Waheed appeared on Sky News and denied he had any “briefings” on Omar Bakri Mohammed despite the fact that he was the emir of HT in UK at one point !

    We have seen HT being vocal in condemning other Muslims in public rather then advising in private (as they frequently tell us, the Union of Former HT Members and Students (UFHTMS) and their other critics!) in much the same way that we often see Inayat Bunglawala (MCB spokesman) condemning HT and anyone else with whom the kuffar are displeased. We now see HT sharing marches with the Stop the War Coalition when they previously claimed these people had a "different agenda to us Muslims so we cannot march with them." Whatever happened to "these people have communists and gays within their ranks ”?!

    THE STENCH OF HIZBIYAH

    We have also seen how HT is now trying to insidiously spread their neo-Mu'tizilite thoughts by spearheading "unity" events yet they always bring their orange and black placards to give the impression that this is an HT march when it should be a unity event. What about when HT used to say on grounds of “purity of thought” that we should not co-operate with other Muslims? How strange; the very same people they regarded as “indirect” agents of the kuffar, deviants,Wahabis, people who “don’t understand reality”; they now want to campaign for them and want them to help them. What is strange is that despite their calls for unity they still backbite and slander us when the march is finished!

    AHL AS-SUNNAH BEWARE!

    In conclusion, the Muslims must be aware that what has happened to HT is that they have been forced to show their true colours because of the adverse circumstances they are now in in the UK. The loud-mouthed students of the 1980s have matured into slick-suited, well-nourished middle-aged men. Even before Tony Blair's speech we were seeing a change of style but not of substance. Now we see a change of tactics: the survival of the Party has become an end in itself. "The rules of the game are changing." Anything goes for the sake of the Party. If that means pleading at the gates of the House of Commons, so be it.

    What we should be more concerned about is that HT have opportunistically used the recent anti-Islamic climate in the UK to worm their way into the affections of mainstream Muslims. After all, did we not used to bitterly complain about how HT would never co-operate with other Muslims in acts of goodness? Now they appear to be co-operating on the surface but, in reality, they are taking leadership such as in the example cited above of how HT members always carry banners with their Party colours to "unity" marches.

    Our question is this: since when did the Islamic Aqeedah stop mattering? If you like countless others think, "it was just that they had funny ideas about Punishment of the Grave but they believe in it nowadays," think again. This was just the tip of the iceberg and believe us (UFHTMS) when we say - in matters of Aqeedah (which are too many to mention here), nothing has changed. Just browse this website and you will see. Since when was it acceptable to denigrate a Sahabi? Since when was it OK to deny the karamaat of the awliyaa'? Since when was it OK to shave the beard? Since when was it OK to shake hands with the opposite sex? Since when was it OK to smoke?

    HT FUTURE? HT...HTB...HCB...MCB

    Whilst unity and cooperation between Muslims is laudable, sectarian groups should never be allowed to be in a position of control/leadership. Did not the Mu'tazilah emerge as a well-known deviant sect who eventually took control of the Khilafah? Co-operation/unity and correction/guidance are not mutually exclusive. Now that we are all happy-clappy-Muslims-in-Britain, we see the voice of those who attempt to point out the errors of groups like HT being silenced. A campaigner for a well-known Islamic website fighting for the release of Muslim prisoners held unjustly in the West said to me, "What's wrong with being in HT? I don't think this is a productive venture. I can sit with members of HT and have a good discussion. I don't talk to him about matters of Aqeedah and he doesn't try to persuade me about them." Here lies the heart of the problem: mainstream Muslims now look up to HT with admiration because of their well-resourced, well-oiled campaign machine. HT well know this. They are now moderating their views to make themselves acceptable to the majority of Muslims - they are now trying to fill the vacuum left by the failure of the MCB by becoming the voice of Briitain's "moderate Muslims".

    THE UNION OF FORMER HIZB UT-TAHRIR MEMBERS AND STUDENTS

    4th Safar 1427/5th March 2006


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    Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair



    as-Salaamu 'alaikum brother,
    JK for the link, but don't mind me saying this, I think we are losing focus.




    No doubt HTs have major heresies in Aqida, and I still stand by the articles I wrote over 5 years ago. But, is it the right moment for us to be neglecting areas where our efforts are needed and focusing instead on issues that could be counterproductive to us all in the current atmosphere?





    walaikum as-sallam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu





    JazaALLAHU Khairan for yoour post akh, Abuz-Zubair.





    The point is that as you categorically stated no doubt there are heresies, but akhi obviously we have to look at things in perspective. Your mentioning the current climate for muslims, akh I can guarantee you 100% that no matter what the climate we are in:





    1-HT are still spreading theri beliefs and probagating them and this in turn is an attack upon the beliefs of the Rasul(saw) and ahl sunnah! So there should be a defence for this.





    2-Have we seen HT change their views or retract any of their activities such as recruiting the youth? No! So why are we to say, in times when of course we need to unify in certain aspects of Islam we should remain quiet about others?





    3-Infact when people are called to the correct belief to this day akhi we are called anthropomorphic (even on this site!), wahabi, devients etc by HT Shabab who have tried to respond to our points, is there no need to even defend the 'aqeedah of Ahl sunnah in this instance? Do you not see how protection of the Hizb is a bigger objective for some*******these people than to seek the truth of the matter. [i]We never used names for them! Yes we said the beliefs were bordering kufr and blatantly bida'ah yet I for one have never called them Mubtadi' or kafir due to the fact that these shabab are generally muqalidoon and folow whatever is generally told to them. But did that stoop theri shabab from the highest sections of HTB to slander? No! Did it stop them from dismissing the 'aqeedah of ahl sunnah, with their 'mockery' of books like 'aqeedah tahawiyyah, 'aqeedah wasatiyyah? no! (I have seen this myself from the highest of members in HTB!)









    Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair





    Bearing in mind that HT has recently come under great scrutiny by the government for its political views (more than its actions), the views we all share irrespective of our background (Ikhwanis, Salafis, Hanafis, etc). Are we to tow the line with the government by attacking HT from within, as it is being attacked from the outside? Or are we to defend them and make sure they survive the political onslaught by the government?







    since when was islah-correction and invitation to the truth, an attack? (obviously we must use hikma) Akhi with all due respect this 'towing the goverment line' you should retract it. These were the same words used against you for showing some of their mistakes and with all due respect we have highlighted others which will innsha'ALLAH save people from making the misguided step of joining HT and following their beliefs.





    Just as you were called an agent and 'saudi salafi supporter' by the shabab before to dismiss your claim, we are too! For stating the correct pposition of ahl sunnah-without name calling/slander brothers have been called agents of the kuffar, helping kuffar against muslims etc! Subhanullah! Is this the so-called 'unity' that HTB calls for? When before they would mock people for having marches, sharing platforms, petitions, even giving sadaqa to muslims abroad (I was at the talk myself at RPM while In was a shab!), call to build masajids, and islamic schools, and how they were 'not the way for revival' but only when HTB do it, it is? Ajeeb!





    Akh, if you and HTB and others think that this is the work of towing the line of the Goverment then so be it! ]ALLAH Ta'ala guide you and them!





    *******It should be know that many people from UFHTMS have been contacted by the kuffar media to discuss these 'problems' with HT and alhamdulillah we have all declined. Because we know the difference between supporting and attcking the muslims for the purposes of the kuffar.









    *******



    originallly posted Abuz Zubair





    Moreover, we cannot ignore the fact that HTs have changed a lot since OBM was expelled (or resigned, whichever version you prefer), and have begun to positively contribute to our issues. Shabina Begum is one case where HTs alone championed our cause as Muslims in Britain, whereas other organisations either remained neutral, or some even critical of HT over this issue.



    I personally found it disgusting to read Sara Joseph’s article condemning the High Court verdict in favour of Shabina Begum. Not only because she is only capable of writing utter nonsense, which suggests that she’s better off reverting to Christianity; but also because the moment at which it was written, where HTs and Shabina Begum needed communal support, because her case sets a precedence for us all.







    Sorry but I agree alhamdulillah there has been changes by HTB....but no apology to all the muslims they insulted even post OBM era. I know because I was a member then and just by dooing one or two things akhi does it change the position of ahl sunnah wa'l jamma'ah that some of their aqaa'id (beliefs) or principles are sahih? Infact they still probagate this! So there is the need for a measured appraoch...one which is not to be in denial...or have the wool pulled over our eyes....





    Even shabana Begums case, why was there a need to mention HTB? We know her brother is a shab, and this obviously is a good time for publicity.





    One should look carefully at the changes of HTB and you will realise many of them occured when Tony Blair made his speech discussing suggesting the poscribing HTB.





    *******





    *******



    originallly posted Abuz Zubair





    After 7/7 (and 911), their press release (and IHRC) seemed to portray the most balanced approach amongst all the press releases and comments issues by the apologetics (JIMAS, MCB, etc etc), or the loonies (al-Ghuraba, Muhajiroun, etc). Surely, they deserve the credit for that.





    Credit where credit is due...but where are the 'ulemah and students of knowledge of ahl sunnah? Or are we to say, ok let HTB take the role of leading this ummah? Ajeeb!







    *******





    *******



    originallly posted Abuz Zubair





    What became clear after 7/7 is that Islam urgently needs recognition (and not acceptance) as a political alternative to the right and the left, and commendably I see the HTs taking the initiative by lobbying. Although, their efforts are primarily geared towards saving their party, but on the other hand, no doubt it is a great contribution to the Islamists in the West.





    But you yourself have underpinned the whole motive of these 'wonderfu' actions, we need people who want Islam to prevail before their Hizb! And when I say this it means forget if HTB/HT is even mentioned, defend Islam for the sake ALLAH Ta'ala!





    T





    *******



    originallly posted Abuz Zubair





    he question is: What have the ‘Salafis’ ever contributed to the society (apart from the endless cycle of Dawah, circles and conferences)? How many schools did they open up (until very recently)? Why can’t the ‘Salafis’ even write a sensible press-release that will not embarrass us all? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to present the political side of Islam to the West? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to campaign for any of the issues of concern to Muslims in the UK? And therefore, are the ‘Salafis’ in a position to discredit other groups for whatever contribution they may be making?







    sorry but discrediting people is not in everything but in that which is wrong is what it is all about. The falilures of the salafi movements doen't make HTB correct. Do we replace one mishap with another? Or maybe try to produce something instead?









    *******



    originallly posted Abuz Zubair





    I would reiterate that I am not justifying the errors of HTs, but all I am saying is that there is a time and place for everything and we must focus on our priorities as a community.






    so when in the communities youth are going to htb and listening 'not only to political talks of htb' but aspects of 'aqeedah and joining them, then there is also a need to warn our communities of this aswell





    wa ALLAHU A'lam





    wasalamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu


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    As-sallamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu







    Another point akh Abuz-Zubair.





    Your 'defence' of HTB is actually an exemplary example of why this link of site is needed. Why? Because I'm not saying we can't defend them for the good that they do or the slander against them. But there are many people who don't know much about HTB and think that all about them is good and then end up joining them.





    So yes many good things from HTB but lets keep in mind the bad that the ummah should be warned against.





    This warning will innsha'ALLAH help them to keep a balanced view, to innsha'ALLAH co-operate in the good work together with Hizb ut-Tahrir, and also not to make the mistake of joining them and maintaining the correct relationship with them, innsha'ALLAH as muslim brothers (and sisters)





    wa ALLAHU A'lam






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    Assalaamulekum,





    Dear oh Dear oh me! Brother Abu Zubair!!!





    Please be careful,





    When you once commented about Imran Waheed's appearance on BBC, did you know*******how the HT's reacted? They reacted as if you were sympathetic towards them and somehow coming on their side! They emailed that link round and round.





    So we should be careful what we say because HT, as you know, are so very oppurtunistic, they will use any kind of compliment as a victory for their party.*******





    Also brother, I think*******the www.htexposed.com website was very good, but you missed some issues out,





    Namely their beleifs about Imaan being without action and statement,





    Their allowal to reject seeing Allah on Qiyamah,





    Their allowal to deny the karamat of the awliyya





    Their allowal to deny Allah's attributes such as the Qu'ran being the Kalam of Allah.





    Their allowal of denial of Isa AS return along with Madhi and many other issues.





    Their saying that man CREATES his own actions,





    ETC ETC





    Some brothers thought that you were just writing about ahad narrations, whereby the site you made should of gone deeper then just merely ahad narrations.







    You are right about "salafi" failures, but does this mean that we therefore rely upon HT? No, rather we should, get our OWN act together.





    You also talk of some of the work they are doing ,





    Brother ahl sunnah were doing these acts, like making schools for Muslims etc etc...but everytime we did it they always said "what will that acheive"





    So when we work for the Deen they always say that are deeds and work is pointless, it doesn't adress teh bigger picture, but when they do it, its the best things since sliced bread!





    forgive me I have to cut this reply short







    I can't take no more then 4 wives...Sorry!

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    Oh by the way,





    I hope you do not take offense, in the above, as I type very fast and sometimes may sound abrasive!





    brother "What the ......" as got a better reply then mine, I just read it.

    I can't take no more then 4 wives...Sorry!

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    there*******exists common ground between us all (only some of the time regrettably). yet despite our glaring political differences and varied religous affiliations there is the notion that we close ranks and form a united front when the kuffar*******singles out a group from amongst*******us that publicises the anguish of the ummah.





    the governments move to silence HT is in turn a*******slap in the face*******to the very sentiments that we all share.





    in 1996, HT committed a trecherous act by*******promoting orientalist and conspiracist*******propaganda about their fellow muslims the taliban, should we do as they did and*******join with*******the kuffar in defaming fellow muslims? surely we are better than that and better than them?





    however when they come up with questionable 'analysis' such as this:



    http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=13044&TagID=1





    they do indeed make it very difficult for other islamists to sympathise with them. and in their desperation to survive they may compromise the security of other*******muslims in the process in a bid to convince the government of their non-violent, non-militant,*******and non-radical ideology it wont be long until they start pointing fingers in a manner that is so typical of the MCB.*********************




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