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Your a Murji'ah

This is a discussion on Your a Murji'ah within the Islam in General forums, part of the Main Topics category; As salaam 'alaikum I was wondering if someone could clarify what is meant by having murji'ah tendencies and how one ...

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    Sadiyah Bint as-Seenee Niqaabis's Avatar
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    Default You're a Murji'ah

    As salaam 'alaikum

    I was wondering if someone could clarify what is meant by having murji'ah tendencies and how one could identify if these tendencies occur in ones chracter

    and lastly and most importantly if it is sinful to do "Irja"

    baarak Allaahu feekum
    Last edited by Niqaabis; 26th July 2008 at 11:21 PM.

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    The Serial Repper Skillganon's Avatar
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    Good question. Since I also don't know.

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    Peculiarly Ostrobogulous Expergefactionist's Avatar
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    Irja is the belief that actions have no impact on one's Iman, and that one can do whatever he likes in his life, so long as he believes in his heart he will receive the salvation. It is a heretical belief which comes in various forms and it has various symptoms such as to claim that iman neither increases nor decreases, or that a person may only become a kafir by disbelieving in his heart and that kufr of actions can never expel one from Islam, or that if a person abandons Islam altogether, save the first pillar, he still remains a Muslim, even if he refuses to pray and fast so long as he acknowledges that all these are obligations.

    Irja is one of the worst form of heresies and the Salaf warned the Sunnis from accompanying and entertaining Murji heretics. Some of the Salaf said that they are more dangerous than the azariqa, a strand of the Khawarij.
    A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.

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    Akhee Abu Zubair...more questions for you lol:

    7 - According to the Sharee'ah wordings, disbelief (kufr) is of two types: The
    greater disbelief (kufr akbar), which expels a person from the fold of Islaam
    completely, and the lesser disbelief (kufr asghar), which does not expel a
    person from the fold of Islaam. This second type is sometimes known as kufr
    'amalee (disbelief in action).

    The last sentence is wrong isn't it? Kufr 'amalee can be both Kufr asghar or akbar, right?

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    The Serial Repper Skillganon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair View Post
    Irja is the belief that actions have no impact on one's Iman, and that one can do whatever he likes in his life, so long as he believes in his heart he will receive the salvation. It is a heretical belief which comes in various forms and it has various symptoms such as to claim that iman neither increases nor decreases, or that a person may only become a kafir by disbelieving in his heart and that kufr of actions can never expel one from Islam, or that if a person abandons Islam altogether, save the first pillar, he still remains a Muslim, even if he refuses to pray and fast so long as he acknowledges that all these are obligations.

    Irja is one of the worst form of heresies and the Salaf warned the Sunnis from accompanying and entertaining Murji heretics. Some of the Salaf said that they are more dangerous than the azariqa, a strand of the Khawarij.
    Isn't it a hanafi position that action is not included?

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    The last sentence is wrong isn't it? Kufr 'amalee can be both Kufr asghar or akbar, right?
    It isn't wrong because most of the kufr 'amali tends to be minor and hence the scholars often make such generalisations. But they do not mean that actions never expel a person from Iman.

    Isn't it a hanafi position that action is not included?
    Theoretically, yes. But what I have come to realise is that practically speaking the difference between them and the Salaf is superficial because the hanafis consider actions of the heart (such as love and hate) to be included in Iman, an don this basis they still make takfeer based on actions, as to them they are indicative of one's statement of actions of the heart.

    For instance, some of them say that if a person grabs hold of a stick beating the kids with it in order to mock a Quran teacher he is a kafir, because in his heart he is belittling the Quran teacher because he teaches the Quran. Likewise, some of them say that if a person prays without wudhu he is a kafir, because this is belittlement of Salah. So they declare a person to be a kafir based on his actions, even though they do not consider actions to be part of Iman. Allahu Alam.
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    Sadiyah Bint as-Seenee Niqaabis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair View Post
    Irja is the belief that actions have no impact on one's Iman, and that one can do whatever he likes in his life, so long as he believes in his heart he will receive the salvation. It is a heretical belief which comes in various forms and it has various symptoms such as to claim that iman neither increases nor decreases, or that a person may only become a kafir by disbelieving in his heart and that kufr of actions can never expel one from Islam, or that if a person abandons Islam altogether, save the first pillar, he still remains a Muslim, even if he refuses to pray and fast so long as he acknowledges that all these are obligations.

    Irja is one of the worst form of heresies and the Salaf warned the Sunnis from accompanying and entertaining Murji heretics. Some of the Salaf said that they are more dangerous than the azariqa, a strand of the Khawarij.
    Subhaan Allaah, this is quite worrying

    I've been reffered to being a muji'ah and after reading the above I am a bit concerened. I'm sure there must be more to this, like giving a person the benefit of the doubt and also bringing proof against a person before we claim they are out of islaam.

    Am I correct in thinking that there are stages before we can make such a claim (that a person is not a muslim)

    and also can we as laymen make this claim against such a person?

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    2C oursels as ithers C us Umm Ahmed's Avatar
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    I used to think like this , we cant see their heart so how can we know, but if you look at the issue of the hijab , where you hear sisters say that the hijab is in the heart , you realise that cant be true at all , because for something to be in the heart means you love it , if you love something it shows , ie your child , you hug them you kiss them you cook for them , the love shows in our actions , so if you have the hijab in your heart then you will love to wear it.
    Thats what made me understand this issue better.
    Deeds are your money on the day of judgement , make sure you collect plenty now.


    Say (O Muhammad SAW):"I am not a new thing among the Messengers (of Allh) (i.e. I am not the first Messenger) nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner." (Al-Ahqaf 46:9)

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    Abu Z you said:

    ((Theoretically, yes. But what I have come to realise is that practically speaking the difference between them and the Salaf is superficial because the hanafis consider actions of the heart (such as love and hate) to be included in Iman, an don this basis they still make takfeer based on actions, as to them they are indicative of one's statement of actions of the heart.

    For instance, some of them say that if a person grabs hold of a stick beating the kids with it in order to mock a Quran teacher he is a kafir, because in his heart he is belittling the Quran teacher because he teaches the Quran. Likewise, some of them say that if a person prays without wudhu he is a kafir, because this is belittlement of Salah. So they declare a person to be a kafir based on his actions, even though they do not consider actions to be part of Iman. Allah))

    notice your statement ((as to them they are "indicative" of one's statement of actions of the heart))

    This is the same thing that shaikh Albani rahimahu Allah believed, so why didn't you apply the same to him? that the difference is superficial?

    Remember the issue of salat, when he declared the person who abandons salat completely to be kafir because his action (abandonment of salat completely) "indicates" that he doesn't have iman in his heart, or something like that (don't remember the exact statement).
    {O you who believe ! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins.} [49:12]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M. View Post

    notice your statement ((as to them they are "indicative" of one's statement of actions of the heart))

    This is the same thing that shaikh Albani rahimahu Allah believed, so why didn't you apply the same to him? that the difference is superficial?
    Hanafis are very harsh in this regard. Mulla Ali al-Qari related from some of the ahnaf that if one congratulates religious festivals of mushrikin, he himself becomes mushrik. Or hanafis said that if som drinks alcohol and father says "bravo! well done!" then he becomes kafir...
    Well, the views of hanafies were related by Abu Bakr ash-Shafi and he after each quote said that shafi's disagreed with ahnaf. So basically, ahnaf were harsher in this regard and brother Abu Zubair tried to explain it!
    Shaikh al-Albani had several issues:
    1. In one of his cassetes with al-Anbari, Shaikh al-Albani made some observations when Khalid al-Anbari read some passages from a book to Shaikh al-Albani and al-Albani - rahimahullah - repeteadly argued against al-Anbari that "iman" and "tasdiq" is the same and they have no difference, thus if a believer is a musaddiq, and if he becomes kafir, then he is no longer musaddiq, he is mukazzib. al-Albani argued that Iblis is not a musaddiq, i.e. he had no tasdiq in his heart. It implies that kufr is only takzib, so all outward disbelief is a minor disbelief.
    That's the same what murji'a say, ever murjiatul-fuqaha say it and Ibn Taimiyya has a long refutation against them in his book "al-Iman", the seventh volume of Majmu' al-Fatawa.
    2. Shaikh al-Albani agrees that outward actions are indicative of what in the heart, but he doesnt make takfir merely upon these actions, he believes that we should be assured that these actions are followed with an explicit "takzib"...that's Shaikh al-Albani's mistakes! and these are mistakes of irja!

    Quote Originally Posted by Um Abdullah M. View Post

    Remember the issue of salat, when he declared the person who abandons salat completely to be kafir because his action (abandonment of salat completely) "indicates" that he doesn't have iman in his heart, or something like that (don't remember the exact statement).
    Shaikh al-Albani never said that who completely abandones salah becomes kafir. What shaikh al-Albani said was about a person who is order to pray and he rejects to pray, and he is brought to be executed and he is asked for the last time to repent and if this man prefers death over salah, then he is kafir without doubt. This is what al-Albani said in his book Hukm Tarik as-Salah

    And Allah knows best!

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