A rivalry: `Abd 'l-Fattah Abu Ghuddah al-Halabi and Muhammad Nasir 'l-Din al-Albani

Discussion in 'Personalities and Biographies' started by Ismail Ibrahim, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam


    Initially, I was going to title this thread as:
    Sheikh Al-Albani and Making "Authentic & Weak" Out of Classical Texts
    in the Hadith section. But I realised the issue is more broader than that.

    I know Sheikh Abd 'l-Fattah Abu Ghuddah absolutely hated the above. Obviously, Deobandis are on his side.

    I believe that al-Albani was not wrong in his various works of this nature, like Saheeh and Da'eef 'l-Adab al-Mufrad, etc.

    What are the thought of the knowledgeable brothers and sisters on IA? Is AFAG's criticism valid? Or is it OTT and mere bias against him?

    This thought of this thread was triggered to in my head by a story of al-Haakim al-Shaheed, a Hanafi scholar and how he was martyred. I am really busy and I would be grateful if someone can locate it and post it, then make the relevant connection to the above text in bold.

    Also, the other issues of Aqeedah and their rebuttals and counter-rebuttals of one another can be analysed here.
  2. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    The argument Shaykh al-Albani brings against him is that hi sown teacher, al-Kawthari, openly declares muttafaqun 'alayhi ahadeeth weak, and yet he doesn't say a word with respect to that. Allahu Alam
  3. Tuwaylib

    Tuwaylib Anti-Defeatist

  4. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    From at-Tahawi

    Obviously, calls for neutrality and not being argumentative are announced after Albani refuted Abu Ghuddah, but not when Abu Ghuddah refuted Albani.

    Typical Deobandi bias.
  5. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    Most Deobandis mention that Albani was evil (May Allah protect us) in the sense that he challenged the two Sahih. However, these very same Deobandis conveniently ignore what al-Kawthari did.

    Here is a research on the Seerah of al-Kawthari in the discipline of Hadith and the scholars of Hadith. It is by a lecturer at Umm 'l-Quraa University Makkah, Muhammad bin Ali bin Salih al-Ghamidi:
    مصنفوا الكتب المسندة في ميزان الكوثري
  6. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    Can someone post up the specifics of al-Kawthari's weakening of the mutafaqat 'alayh?

    Jazakumullahu khairan in advance
  7. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    He weakened the hadith of the slave-girl in Muslim, from what I recall. Sorry, no specifics.

    As for the issue of dividing the Sunan and other such works into Sahih and Da'if, personally, I don't like it, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

    It is not much different than Tahdhib or Ikhtisar, in which authors take works and rearrange the materials to their liking to suit a certain purpose.

    Personally, I think the recent prints that combine Albani's Sahih/Da'if back into one version with his grades is much more practical and useful, as the separate Sahih/Daif volumes separate materials that are best viewed together.
  8. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    From here:

    ظ…طµظ†ظپظˆط§ ط§ظ„ظƒطھط¨ ط§ظ„ظ…ط³ظ†ط¯ط© ظپظٹ ظ…ظٹط²ط§ظ† ط§ظ„ظƒظˆط«ط±ظٹ - ط¬ط§ظ…ط¹ط© ط£ظ… ط§ظ„ظ‚ط±ظ‰
  9. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    This is what happens when your heart goes blind:
    You could make a whole separate thread on the 'laa manhajiyya' of al-Kawthari. How humiliating for the Deobandis to take such a worthless man as a reference point.

    Advice to the Maulanas: stick to your own 'bezurg'. They left you with more than enough issues to have to deal with.
  10. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    The Deobandis are very appealed by the triad:

    Al-Kawthari - Abu Ghuddah - M. Awwaamah.

    Any academia they can bring up in terms of Hadith (apart from Sharh 'l-Hadith) is mainly down to these three personalities.

    Deobandis - to this day - still think that their works stand to refute the Hanaabilah. This is the self-delusion they are in.

    Muhammad Awwaamah is the one who wrote أثر الحديث الشريف في اختلاف الأئمة الفقهاء. This is a book that passed around the Deobandis worldwide as if it is the final Hujjah against all the Salafiyyah. The reality, however, is that it a convoluted attempt to justify the Mathabistic Taqleed of Deobandis. Just look at the title of the book: "The Effect of Hadith on the Divergence of the Jurist Imams" - as if it is Hadih per se that is responsible for the differences of opinion in the Ummah. As a brother on the Arabic Multaqa said: This title is Ghayr Muwaffaq.

    Mutual deception and self-deception between the triad and the Deobandis if you ask me...
  11. habdullaah

    habdullaah Member


    Dear Br. justabro,

    Assalaamu alaikum wrwb,

    Can you kindly let me know more about those prints.

  12. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

    I'm sorry, brother, I didn't understand the question. Which prints exactly would you like to know about?
  13. yourstruly

    yourstruly New Member

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Shaikh Albani had started a project called “Taqreebus Sunnah baina Yadayal Ummah” i.e. making the Sunnah easily accessible for the Ummah.

    He presents Saheeh and Hasan Ahaadith without the Asaaneed. He says people don’t have time and sanad takes too much time. Then they need to only use Saheeh or Hasan Hadith not Dhaeef, but since most people and even a majority of the ulama cannot differentiate between Saheeh and Dhaeef he looked into the Asaaaneed of the Ahaadith.

    So in Saheehain all he did was omit the Asaaneed and Mukarraat etc Meaning no need for tasheeh etc.
    In the Sunan Arba’ah before omitting the Sanad it was necessary to check its’ status. The texts of the Saheeh (authentic) and Hasan (sound) Hadith were kept while the Dhaeef and weak narrations were placed in a separate book.
    Subsequently he altered the original style of the Sunan Arab’ah as well as books like Adabul Mufrad of Imaam Bukhari, Kalimut Tayyib of Ibn Taymiyyah etc. But as justabro pointed out it can be likened to Tahtheeb or Ikhtisaar etc.
    Here are some of the reasons that some scholars disagree with this Taqseem separation:1. Altering the original form of the book.

    Shaikh Albani does mention in one of the introductions that some scholars have disagreed with this separation because of altering, and yes, the original form is best but not for the reason I’m separating them for, Taqreebus Sunnah.

    2. People will use the Saheeh Volume and leave out the Dhaeef one. But we know that authenticating a Hadith and making Tadheef of it is an Ijtihaadi issue where different muhadditheen can differ. This was pointed out in the thread concerning Shaikh Albani’s Irwaul Ghaleel, that Shaikh Bakr Abu Zaid disagreed with many of Albani’s classifications of the Ahaadith in that book.
    So according to Shaikh Albani a Hadith might be weak so he places it in the Dhaeef section while according to others it is hasan/saheeh, so the layman will be deprived of that Hadith. >>

    3. The impression that is given to the general public as to only read and benefit from the Saheeh section. But as we said it is an Ijtihaadi issue.

    4. Imaam Tirmithi many a times brings Dhaeef narration but still points out that so and so Mujtahid acted upon it. He even said in his Ilal Sagheer that all the Ahaadith in his Sunan are Mamool bihaa (acted upon) except 2. (there is a bahth on the 2 as well) Therefore scholars will differ in which Hadith they act upon and which they leave out. But dividing the Sunan leaves it one sided.

    5.This is an Usooli reason. Is Dhaeef Hadith rejected Mutlaqan. According to Shaikh Albani Dhaeef Hadith is rejected mutlaqan. Well he is of the view that 2 Dhaeefs can make a Hasan, which is called Hasan Li Ghairihi, so he doesn’t completely reject Dhaeef Hadith. As for A Dhaeef Hadith Mahdh, on its own with no support, then he is of the view that it is rejected. He does not even accept it in Fazaail. Point to note is I remember that the 5 volume golden Hadith Hasan li Thatihi wa li Ghairihi book even though he rejected the view of 2 Dhaeefs or more making a Hasan according to the mutaqaddemeen b4 Tirmithi, he did accept Dhaeef in Fazaail fil Jumlah for instance in Dua etc. It is an excellent read.

    Now Shaikh AFAG is of the view that Dhaeef Hadith can be used in Fazaail etc. He is also of the view that it can be used in Ahkaam when there is no other Daleel available and it is not extremely weak. Well as justabro has pointed out other places Imaam Ahmad was of this view as well that Dhaeef Hadith can be used in Ahkaam but after the qawl of the Sahabah and b4 Qiyaas rather Ibn Qayyim mentions in his Elaamul Muwaqqeen that this was the mathab of all the Imaams, Abu Hanifah, Malik and Shafee. From Tirmithi’s Sunan we can see that many scholars acted on Ahadith that were Dhaeef or at least others considered them Dhaeef. Imam Abu Dawood also mentions in his risalah to Ahlul Makkah that the Ahadith in his sunan are the basis for the masaail of the aimah like Shafee, Malik and Thawri etc.

    So AFAG’s argument is that why separate the book and disregard the Dhaeef Ahaadith when these authors brought them as Hujjah , shawaahid or for Etibaar etc.

    I also prefer the whole text with the status mentioned at the start. But I must caution that Shaikh Albani said his only task was the labeling of Saheeh Dhaeef etc not anything else. Therfore the Tahqeequn Nusoos etc goes back to the publisher. So it would be best to rely on the Texts that are edited using manuscripts. While Shaikh Albani's Mufassal Sunan can be used for researching the status of Hadith according to him.

    None the less, Haakim went in pieces and Albani in ONE.

    Wallahu Alam
    Umm Ubaid likes this.
  14. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    Thanks for that.

    We have already discussed why the Ahl 'l-Hadith used to bring weak Hadith in their books. Please see the sticky thread in the Hadith section.

    As for S. Albani, then I think he mentioned the Hasan Li Ghayrihi Hadith in the Saheeh sections. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, if Albani utterly disregarded weak Hadith, he would not have compiled the weak sections at all! Right? Furthermore, the Hadith in his weak sections are broadly split into three: weak, severely weak, and fabricated.

    Furthermore, the beef S. Albani has with weak Hadith is not personal; it is rather a preventative measure. He complains that those people who practise on weak Hadith (which S. Albani himself says is a legitimate opinion) utterly disregard the conditions that have been placed in order for one to practise on them. He says that these same people practise upon severely weak and sometimes fabricated Hadith. This is a good conclusion by S. Albani.

    In conclusion, I would suggest that it was the above that spurred S. Albani to what he did. No doubt, as justabro said, that the satte of Hadith was abysmal before Albani, And is the bigoted Marifah acknowledged:
    So although I and many others disagree with S. Albani in some fundamental issues of Hadith, I would defend him to the death against the pseudo-academics who lambast S. Albani for no reason apart from the fact that he annihilated their Batil and exposed them to no bounds (and because he was an ex-Hanafi obviously). I thank Allah that he created S. Albani despite what his enemies have to say about him.

    HH. Out
  15. yourstruly

    yourstruly New Member

    Assalamu Alaikum

    Exactly, 2 or more Dhaeef chains of the same matn did have some value to Albani that is why he considered it Hasan Li Ghairihi and placed it in the Saheeh section.

    As for those Ahadith that he classified as Dhaeef , Dhaeefun Jiddah and Maudoo then they have no value according to him in my understanding. His Silsilah Dhaeefah is also evidence to this.

    Wallahu A'lam
  16. yourstruly

    yourstruly New Member

    Assalmu Alaikum
    Just came across this:

    Lets look into these taking the Sunan into consideration.

    1. Applies to the Sunan
    2. Does NOT apply
    3. 4. Applies
    5. Does NOT apply
    6. 7. 8. 9. Applies
    10. Does NOT apply
    11. Is this different from 7?
    12. Does NOT apply
    13. Applies
    14. Does NOT apply

    Lets add to that

    15. To use as a hujjah in law when there is no other nass bi shurutihi. Even Abu Dawood and Nasai was of this view.
    16. To show that the mujtahideen's masaail had some sort of basis when it is not extremely weak. As AD and T mentions in their intros.
    17. When the Dhaeef Hadith is supported by the Amalun Naas e.g. Laa Wasiyyata li Waarith.

    And Allah Knows best.
  17. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    Good points.

    justabro adds to the reasons why weak Hadith came in relation to Fadaa'il:
    Basically, these 20/19 reasons refute those people who say that the scholars brought weak Hadith only because they could be practised upon.
  18. habdullaah

    habdullaah Member

    "Personally, I think the recent prints that combine Albani's Sahih/Da'if back into one version with his grades is much more practical and useful, as the separate Sahih/Daif volumes separate materials that are best viewed together."

    Dear Br. I wish to know shortly about the publishers and which works have they combined. I am interested in purchasing them.

  19. Ismail Ibrahim

    Ismail Ibrahim Formerly Harris Hammam

    Just to add, I really don't know what the big fuss is all about.

    S. Albani's works can be merged back together. I'm sure that S. Albani wouldn't have had a problem with that. He just felt that it would be beneficial if he placed them in separate volumes.

    So insofar as the 'merged' version of Saheeh and Daeef is concerned, S. Albani has plenty of Salaf in that. Furthermore, some of S. Albani's other works (Takhreejaat) have Tasheeh and Tad'eef in them and he didn't separate the Saheeh from the Daeef in those books.

    Seriously, the anti-Albanis have made this trivial issue into such a major issue that they have only exposed their own bigotry by doing so. Maybe they should look into their own backyards and witness the propagation of all the severely weak and fabricated Hadith that are passed around within their ranks, yet nobody says anything about that in the same passionate manner they wish to defame S. Albani.

    حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل
  20. Tuwaylib

    Tuwaylib Anti-Defeatist

    I thought that the criticism of sh. Albani was that he was mutasahil when it came to tasheeh?

Share This Page