Ahlul hadeeth on 'not praying behind someone'

Discussion in 'Islam in General' started by nobody, Aug 24, 2007.

  1. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    Assalamoa alaikum

    the reason for this thread is to show that the reason for not praying behind a hanafi 'alim is not fiqhi isuues but their aqaid according to ahlul hadeeth of indo pak.

    Imam Saheehul Aqeedah huna chahiyay by Badee' Uddin shah rashdi rahimahullah (Urdu/arabic)

    The Necessity For the Imaam To Have Correct Aqeedah (english translation of above risalah)

    Biddati Ke Piche Namaz Padne Ka Hikm - The Ruling on Praying behind Innovators by Shaikh Zubai 'Ali Zai (urdu/arabic many quotations are in arabic)


    zubair 'ali has done his utmost to prove that rafu'l yadain and reciting fatiha behind imam is wajib. but even doesnt use these fiqhi issues for this specific purpose.
  2. Yasir

    Yasir لك الله يا مهبط الوحي

    wa'alaikum as-salaam,

    Did the Ahlul-Hadeeth of the subcontinent pray behind Sh. Thanaullah Amritsari?
  3. salafi brother

    salafi brother New Member

    Now this is just nonsense, as much as i hate Hanafees, i would pray behind one based upon Muhammad Ibn Seereen who said pray and upon him is his bid'ah.

    not praying behind a mubtadee hanafee is just nonsense
  4. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    LOL i know i have to answer your previous question. i didnt reply because my knowledge about usools of narrating ahadeeth have proven to be the knowledge of 'opinions' only. so its better to ask then say something. hope that you will wait for some more days. wassalam.
  5. tawheedullah

    tawheedullah <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    You hate Hanafis? That's insane.
  6. Abu Shu'aib

    Abu Shu'aib Active Member

    its called extremism
  7. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    from khalq af'al al'ibaad, imam bukhari said:

    [FONT=&quot]ما أبالي صليت خلف الجهمي والرافض أم صليت خلف اليهود والنصارى[/FONT]

    meaning: i dont care whether i pray behind jahmi and rafdhi or i pray behind yahood and nasarah.

    in his saheeh he has brought a mu'allaq athar of hasan basri that pray behind a mubtadee and also the qaul of uthman ibn 'affan ra who also approved it.

    so its a matter to be investigated by an individual his/herself. i know many deobandi ulema who have very little knowledge about the sifati issues ( i dont want to say anything about breilvis no 'udhr in basic aqeedah) . so what should we do in that case? what if there is a possibility of missing a prayer altogether if one doesnt pray in jamah? this is a problem with many guys i know.

    my intention with this thread was to remove a misconception, as i said in the begining. and yes no need to hate them. deobandees are indeed very close to salafis. mostly , but ironically, the more ignorant and practicing a deobandi hanafi the better he is. and Allah knows best.

    Last edited: Aug 25, 2007
  8. Yasir

    Yasir لك الله يا مهبط الوحي

    wa’alaikum as-salaam,
    I look forward to it insha’Allah, and appreciate you making the effort in order to find out more. JazakAllahu khairan.

    Who do you mean by the term, "Ahlul-Hadeeth"?
    Do you mean the scholars, the muhadditheen? Or people that unfortunately have never had the opportunity to open a book of hadeeth, let alone study, acquire, memorise, preserve and seek to understand the ahadeeth, yet fancy the title "Ahlul Hadeeth"? Is it possible to be from the Ahlul-Hadeeth without to have knowledge of the ahadeeth?
    Can you post the reference for this statement please, and also explain which super-being it was uttered by such that as a result his statement has become representative of all the Ahnaaf?
  9. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    for this thread, by ahlul hadeeth i mean ahle hadeeth 'ulema of indo pak. because we the laymen are mustafti and not muftis, so we cant pass such fatawa. LOL

    well from the aqwal of 'ulema i have found only this according which people like us can be called ahlul hadeeth clearly.

    Ahlalhadith is not one party. On the contrary, you would find them every where, “ amongst them you will find the brave fighters, scholars, Hadith colecters, pious and righteous people and others who join the right and disjoin the wrong, etc… it is not necessarily to find them gathered in one place as you may find them everywhere” [ Sharh Muslim by Imam Nawawi 13/67]

    oh but i dont have such qualities, may Allah forgive me.

    the other one which can prove this to some extent is:

    Ahl Al-Hadith are the boarder guards of Muslim states. Abu Mansour Al-Baghdadi said: “Those who guarded the boarders between Muslim states and Roman, Arab land, Al-Sham, Atherbijan, Africa, Yemen and Andalusia were following the Madhab of Ahl Al-Hadith. [Osool Al-Deen: 1/317 quoted from the history of Ahl Alhaith book by Al-Hashmi, page 59]

    so there has been a madhhab of ahl al hadeeth, which 'ulema and laymen have been following.

    from http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=134. you will some other qoutes there too.

    it is there in the 2nd pdf file. the risalah was written about the ahnaf living in indo pak in recent times. otherwise, its useless. yiup there are mamatit deobandees but they are exceptional case.
  10. Abu Maryam PK

    Abu Maryam PK New Member

    Shaykh al-Islām, may Allāh have mercy on him, states, “We do not mean by Ahl al-Hadīth, merely those who are devoted to hearing them, writing them, or narrating them. Rather we mean by them all of those who are most deserving of having memorized them, knowing them, and understanding them apparently and in reality, and following them privately and publicly.” [Majmū` al-Fatāwā (4/95)]

    “Ahl al-Hadīth are the Salaf from the (first) three generations and those who tread their path from the Khalaf.” [Majmū` al-Fatāwā (6/355)]

    I beleive you can find it in Al-Mahnad by Khaleel Saharanpuri. As noted in another thread, the "Hanafies" mentioned in Sh Badi's article are Debandis. It is specific for Indo_pak deobandis.
  11. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    This is not something I have read in a book btw. this is something that ppl have experienced. One of the Mashaykhs told me his own experience with Ahl-e-Hadis figurehead who refused to pray behind anyone who does not raise his hands.
  12. Abu Maryam PK

    Abu Maryam PK New Member

    That maybe an individual mistake. Otherwise, it has not come in my experience.
    Infact Sh Abdullah Naasir Rahmani was questioned by me on the issue. He said the Arab hanafis are much better. Infact, he was all praises for Sh Mahmood Al-Tahaan, who was also his class-fellow, and despite being hanafi, he was not bigoted. He said when we compare these to our paki hanafis, the issue is different. Here they seems to be in open rebellion to hadith, so the two are not comparable.
  13. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    assalamo 'alaikum

    i agree with bilal bhai.

    i wanted change your (and those who follow you in ma'ruf) view regarding the extremism of ahle hadeeth of indo pak, atleast to some extent.
  14. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Thank you. This only underlines what I had said earlier. It is more of a Paki thing than Hanafi vs. Ahl-e-Hadis. And in this vein Ahl-e-Hadis are as guilty as the Hanafis, because they are all Pakis. God save us.
  15. Abu Treika

    Abu Treika Magoo

    i agree with AZ, its pakistan where this extremism originates from and some of it has pushed into the u.k from their. the blanket statement that you cant pray behind a hanafi is silly, shouldnt it be "i wont pray behind an innovator" which in it self is still extreme?
  16. Yasir

    Yasir لك الله يا مهبط الوحي

    Is it possible,
    i) for someone to have those attributes yet not call themselves "Ahlul-Hadeeth", and
    ii) for someone to not have those attributes and consider himself from amongst the "Ahlul-Hadeeth"?
    Does that mean you’re not from the Ahle-Hadeeth now then?
    Can I ask if you’re currently involved in ribaat? If not, has that expelled you from being from the Ahlul-Hadeeth?
    I read the link, JazakAllahu khairan.
    I noticed that several descriptions were listed of the Ahlul Hadeeth, yet my question is, does someone become from the "Ahlul-Hadeeth" simply by calling himself/herself "Ahlul Hadeeth"?

    In both PK and the UK we have entire "Ahle-Hadeeth" communities, yet the vast majority of them openly admit that they have never studied any Arabic, let alone understand what constitutes "Fiqh of the Hadith"... are they to be considered Ahlul-Hadeeth? (Btw, I think we can safely assume they aren’t part-time Muraabitoon either :) ).
    That is not what was said, nor did you say, "we do not pray behind people that hold such and such belief". Rather you said, "the reason for this thread is to show that the reason for not praying behind a hanafi 'alim is not fiqhi isuues but their aqaid", as though to imply the views you have listed are representative of the ahnaaf.
    Interesting quote... Can you explain how many villagers in the subcontinent, who are known to be from Ahle-Hadeeth families, fit that description? Those that have never been able to read, nor study the ahadeeth... Do you often find them memorising the ahadeeth and understanding them 'apparently and in reality'?
    If I added "I'm Ahle-Hadeeth" in my profile on this forum, would you consider me 'one who treads the path' of the Salaf?
    It would be sensible to clarify that here, in this thread, given that sweeping generalisations are being made.
  17. Abu Maryam PK

    Abu Maryam PK New Member

    Yes, it is. Many sunnis don't call themselves "sunnis", yet they are still sunnis because of they believe, preach and do.
    Anyone can lay claim to anything. Like people calling themselves "aashiq e rasool"sallallahoalaihiwasallam and yet disobeying his basic call of Tauheed, etc. A claim is borne out by practice. If a person claims himself ahlul hadith yet acts opposite to the sunnah or deny part/whole of it, hi practice belies his claim. Similarly if a person denies part of the revelation, he doesn.t deserve to be called a sunni. This is the case with majority of deobandi ulema. Clear evidence presented from Quraan and Sunnah is rejected because of bigotry.
    You missed the point of the quote, brother yasir.
    answered above.
    Yes. They try to find the truth (if they don't they cant be described as such), according to the level of their capacity and follow it. Is it necessary to know a hadith in arabic to follow it. Allah has given everybody some understanding of religion. How much do you need to know to apply a adith describing the manner of tayammum in Bukhari (this example was given by Sh Uthaymeen, in Sharah Waraqaat). Everyone is burdened according to their capacity. On the contrary, how convenient is it to reject a hadith (even by a comonner) by saying, true this hadith is in Bukhari an I know no one can say the hadith is weak, but my Imam must have more knowledge than me and I cannot oppose him. Similarly if a an ahlul hadith is shown a hadith (e.g. praying close to the sutrah) and he says "well my scholars donot do that' then he cannot be called an ahlul hadith.
    I think it should be clear that context of the term "hanafi" was specific. If there is still some misunderstanding, let's say deobandis and barelvis.
  18. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    why pakis only? the divide and rift stretches from the bangladesh to kunnarh, province of afghanistan. LoL. why the ghareeb pakis only? all most all of the ahnaf live in this region.

    seriously list the reasons why you think ahlul hadeeth from indo pak to be extremists.i thought that i have responded to one of the reasons why you think that they are extremists. if its only all out rejection of taqleed for even the laymen by ahlul hadeeth then leave it. you can think whatever you want. though i must say that its only a lafzi ikhtilaf between ahlul hadeeth and you (and your likes among the salafis). because we agree that laymen should ask 'ulema and if he find a textual proof against the opinion of a scholar he can leave the opinion. so in effect there is no ikhtilaf while the hanafis say that the laymen cannot leave the madhhab of their imam even if they find text against it.
  19. nobody

    nobody حامدا و مصلیا

    Allah knows best. i pray to Allah that i die the death of an ahl hadeeth.

    huhhh it smells like examination hall man. may Allah grant me success. akh bilal are you praying for me ? LOL

    well i thought it was obvious. because most of the living ahnaf specially in indian subcontinent are maturidis according to themselves. who are the salafi 'ulema bin baaz, ibn uthmeen, albani. their aqaid are well known. heretics say that they are mushabbiha. we say that they are sunnis. same is the cas ewith the ahnaaf we see them according to the aqaid of their recent 'ulema.

    but just to clarify this thread doesnt mean to refute ahnaf with salafi aqaid.
  20. Yasir

    Yasir لك الله يا مهبط الوحي

    Still awaiting an answer to:
    Furthermore, given that Sh. Badi ud-Deen was his student, can you clarify whether or not he would refuse to pray behind his Shaykh?

Share This Page