Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by abuhannah, May 12, 2007.

  1. abuhannah

    abuhannah Well-Known Member


    Salamolaikom,AbuZubair or any of the other knowledgeable muslim's,can you please veiw the above clip on apostasy,I know this brother personally and would like to advice him,he is erring a lot on this video and misunderstanding ayat and hadeeth,I am not quite sure where his Islam is at in terms of creed,hence why I am asking for a wee bit of help on this,jzk in advance.
  2. JayshAllah

    JayshAllah <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Shaykh Yousuf Qaradawi as well as scholars from Al-Azhar University do not agree with the death penalty for what they term Minor Apostasy.
  3. This is not true. Shaykh Qardawi does not say that. What he actually said is; people who are guilty of minor apostacy are given a 'grace period' to repent. However, there's a minority opinion which says they don't have to be killed even if they don't repent in that period. They can be imprisoned instead.

    Don't twist what he said.
    Last edited: May 12, 2007
  4. Umm

    Umm New Member

    The Qur’an is clear regarding the apostate:

    "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them." [Surah Nisa verse 89]

    There are several ahadith in Bukhari too:

    Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:

    Narrated Abu Qilaba: ...I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate." Then the people said, "Didn't Anas bin Malik narrate that Allah's Apostle cut off the hands of the thieves, branded their eyes and then, threw them in the sun?" I said, "I shall tell you the narration of Anas. Anas said: "Eight persons from the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Apostle and gave the Pledge of allegiance for Islam (became Muslim). The climate of the place (Medina) did not suit them, so they became sick and complained about that to Allah's Apostle. He said (to them ), "Won't you go out with the shepherd of our camels and drink of the camels' milk and urine (as medicine)?" They said, "Yes." So they went out and drank the camels' milk and urine, and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of Allah's Apostle and took away all the camels. This news reached Allah's Apostle , so he sent (men) to follow their traces and they were captured and brought (to the Prophet). He then ordered to cut their hands and feet, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, and then he threw them in the sun till they died." I said, "What can be worse than what those people did? They deserted Islam, committed murder and theft."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

    Narrated Ikrima:

    Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

    Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

    Narrated Abu Burda:

    Abu Musa said, "... The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. A...'"

    He rejects hadiths on the death penalty for apostasy, as they are "ahad hadiths"?!

    He explains away the hadith below as having the death penalty, as it includes treason against the state, and not just apostasy alone, quoting “Anyone who leaves his religion and splits away from the jama’at, kil him..”

    The hadith "whoever changes his religion, kill him" he boldly claims this could refer to anyone, even a jew or christian leaving their religion?! Since when is a christian or jew who changes their religion killed?

    "Every single instance of apostasy at the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) involved treason..." he said. He shows a lack of understanding that apostasy is worse than treason. And anyway, not every apostate went on to fight against the State, as a part of a political conspiracy as he claims.

    I wonder if this guy is a HT, as conspiracies against eh state are most serious than apostasy, and he rejects ahad hadith?

    Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:

    Narrated Abu Musa:

    A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.

    The above hadith doesn't mention treason at all.

    He quotes ayaat (2:256, 10:99, 15:2-3 and 18:29. Every one of these references refers to "no compulsion in religion" i.e. not forcing someone to convert. It doesn't say anything about the murtad.

    He cites the following ayah as proof that a person can apostate as many times as they wish, without the death penalty:

    137. Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (Right) Way.

    He claims that they following ayah (5:54, 13:40, 2:217, 5:49, 3:85, 3:90, 47:34 and 16:106-109] which refer to the disbelievers (NOT apostates) being punished in the akhirah, is proof that they have no death penalty in this life. Not one of these ayaat deal with the apostate! Some are even general ayaat, that are irrelevant to his argument. e.g.

    " Whether We show you (O Muhammad ) part of what We have promised them or cause you to die, your duty is only to convey (the Message) and on Us is the reckoning." [13:40]

    He also cites ayah trying to prove his claim that apostasy and freedom of religion is tolerated:

    24:54, 42:6, 2:108, 3:20, 5:3 and 27: 92

    Look at 5:3 alone:

    ".. This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."
    Where does it support his false claims?

    He fails to understand the difference between:
    1) The difference between a kaafir being free to stay upon their misguidance, and

    2) the one who accepts Islam and then apostates

    3) General ayah saying that whoever doesn't accept Islam will be punished in the akhirah, does not mean that the apostate is not killed.

    4) A general ayah saying that the apostate is punished in the akhirah, doesn't negate the fact that they have a punishment in the dhunia too.
    Last edited: May 12, 2007
  5. Umm

    Umm New Member

    Why death is the punishment for Apostasy


    This question has bees asked several time from non-Muslims and I want to find an answer: Why When the Muslim convert to another religion(Murtad) he/she should be killed?


    Praise be to Allaah.

    Your question may be answered by the following points:

    (1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).

    (2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.

    (3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.

    (4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.

    (5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

    (6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?

    We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

    Islam QA
  6. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    No need to twist his views. His views and his Ikhwani modernist colleagues are quite well known for their views on apostasy.
  7. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

    akhi, please have husn dhan of your brothers and sisters.
    maybe that is what he understood or read, not that he intentionally twisted it.

    so just explain without accusations.
  8. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    He does to me:

    Besides, Islam does not call for the execution of apostates who do not proclaim their apostasy or call for it. Rather, it leaves the punishment for the hereafter if they die in the state of apostasy, as Almighty Allah says, [And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein.](Al-Baqarah 2:217). However, this type of apostate may receive a discretionary punishment in this world.

  9. Well, how can you punish them, if they don't say explicitly that they apostacized?
  10. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member


    The one who admits he practises magic, or believes that the world is eternal, or says that 'I am God and God is me', or prays to other than God, is guilty of apostasy. He doesn't have to appear on a radio show to officially announce his apostasy to the nation.

    The one who does not ever commit an act of kufr, or even utter a word of kufr is not an apostate to begin with :)
  11. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    various ways,

    some of them stop praying and start causing a fitnah by asking or telling others not to pray either.

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said about this matter, this will dispel any confusion.

    He (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    In the case of one who believes that prayer is obligatory yet still persists in not praying, the fuqahaa’ who have studied the matter in detail mentioned a number of points:

    The first of them is this point, which was stated by the majority of them, Maalik, Al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad: if a person persists until he is killed, is he killed as a kaafir and an apostate, or as a sinful Muslim like other sinful Muslims, as stated in the two well-known views reported from Ahmad? Such detailed discussion was not reported from the Sahaabah, and is excessive and futile.

    If the person believes in his heart that prayer is obligatory, this will not allow him to persist in not doing it until he is executed. Such a thing is not known among the sons of Adam, and has never happened in Islam. It is unheard of for a person to believe that it is obligatory and to be told, “If you do not pray we will execute you” and then to persist in not doing it even though he believes it is obligatory. This has never happened in Islam.

    When a person refrains from praying until he is executed, he does not really believe in his heart that it is obligatory and was not doing it, so he is a kaafir, according to the consensus of the Muslims, as it was stated in many reports that the Sahaabah would consider such a person to be a kaafir. This is also indicated by the saheeh texts, such as the ahadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):

    “Nothing stands between a person and Kufr except his giving up prayer” (narrated by Muslim).

    “The covenant that separates us from them is prayer, and whoever gives up prayer has become a kaafir.”

    ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Shaqeeq said: “The companions of Muhammad did not think that giving up any deed would make a person a kaafir – apart from giving up prayer.”

    Whoever persists in not praying and never prostrated to Allaah at all until he dies, can never be a Muslim who believes that prayer is obligatory. Believing that it is obligatory and that the person who does not do it deserves to be executed is sufficient motive to make a person do it, for if a person has the motive and ability to do something, it should be done. If he is able to do it but he never does it, this indicates that the motive is not present in his case.

    (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 22/47-49)
  12. You just dig too deep dawg. I think Sh. Qaradawi was talking in really general terms.
  13. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Bro... the point is that Sh al-Qaradhawi is a well known modernist and a proponent of fiqh al-taysir, something even he does not deny. that is not to deny his efforts with respect to many other issues, such as refutation of secularists, nationalists, etc... but just acknowledging a reality.

    What he stated is basically what he stated, without the need to dig deep into anything.

    The apostate who does not 'announce' his apostasy, is not an apostate.
  14. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lBJmm-nfEow"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lBJmm-nfEow" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

    Lecture by Bilal philips, and also a document with something about the same issue.

    this is his opinion.

    Allah knows best

    Attached Files:

  15. Perhaps this is what he meant. It is all irrelevant without a Shari'ah court.
  16. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Allah knows best what he meant, but the dhahir of what he is saying is that the apostate who does not announce his apostasy is not punished.

    Well, this is wrong, because apostates are punished, whether they announce to the word: 'Hello World! I am an apostate', or not.

    Indeed, it is irrelevant, which is why I don't understand why the modernists love to bring these issues up time after time. This is one of my arguments against TR's call for moratorium.

    This issue is only brought up due to their defeatist mentality. The burning urge to apologise.
  17. JayshAllah

    JayshAllah <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Brother, first I think it very offensive that you are accusing me of twisting what he said. This is just from what I ascertained from his fatwa, due to the following words by Shaykh Qaradawi:

    "The death penalty with regard to apostasy is to be applied only to those who proclaim their apostasy and call for others to do the same"

    And more explicitly he says:

    "Islam does not call for the execution of apostates who do not proclaim their apostasy or call for it."


    I tend to agree with him on this point.

    The reason apostasy is punished by death is a deterrent to stop others from also getting the same idea. But if he never declares his apostasy openly or call for it, then it is a non-issue in my opinion. A similar situation such as Zinnah: if a man sins privately in the night, he has the option of not revealing his sin to a judge. Even if does go to a judge, the judge should turn his face away and say things like "perhaps you just kissed or hugged and nothing else..." (In other words, the punishment is to be averted if possible.) However, if a man openly commits Zinnah and then boasts about it telling all the people about it, then the Hadd is to be delivered upon him immediately and ASAP.

    The Hadood is mostly to serve as a deterrence, to prevent people from looking at sinners as examples to follow.

    Anyways, I'm obviously not qualified to deal with this or pass a fatwa about this...but Shaykh Qaradawi's stance does make a lot of sense. If a man loses faith in Islam but does not openly say that, then I feel that is a matter with him and Allah. And maybe he will turn back to the folds of Islam later.

    You can read about more proofs here:


    And let's just look at it from a *practical* point of view: if someone apostatizes in his heart but does not openly share this information, then how would the state execute him in the first place? As long as he does not commit any OPEN acts of kufr, then there is no way to tell that he is an apostate.

    So from a practical viewpoint, the state wouldn't be able to punish such type of apostasy in the first place.
    Last edited: May 12, 2007
  18. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    maybe you shouldnt compare a sin with apostacy....

    or maybe there is a difference of opinion?

    but shouldnt we follow what the Salaf say? or would that be taqleed too?
  19. JayshAllah

    JayshAllah <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    The situation has changed a bit from the time of the Salaf. Back then, religious affiliation was strongly associated with political affiliation. Christian was your NATIONALITY back then and apostatizing from Christianity was considered treason against the state. Such is not the case any more. Being American, for example, does not necessitate being Christian or vice/versa.

    Brother Abuz Zubair feels that we shouldn't follow the sayings of the Salaf when it comes to the matter of making Hijra back to the lands of Islam because he feels that the situation is different now than back then. I am only arguing a similar thing.

    And there is evidence from both the Quran and Hadith that certain apostates were not killed unless they waged war on Islam by pen or by sword. I shall post it up Insha-Allah.

    Anyways, not trying to say my view is right and yours is wrong. Just musing, nothing else...mostly because it is hard to swallow that our religion would call for death to people for changing religions.

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