Arguments from Non-Believers

Discussion in 'Islam in General' started by Sinog, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. Sinog

    Sinog New Member

    Assalaam alaikum everyone!
    Wooo. It's been a long journey the last couple of months! Thank you for your help, everyone.
    Now, I have a thread that could potentially help tons of people in tons of different ways (insha'Allah!). For me, it'll help my imaan and help my whole situation with my partner. For someone else, maybe it'll help dawah.
    This will be a thread where we can post arguments against the belief in God, and explain why these are not sufficient arguments. If one already exists, my mistake, but it could be helpful just the same!

    A few arguments I've been hearing:

    -If God exists outside of space and time, and therefore doesn't exist in our world, why should we care about the belief in God, since God doesn't exist like we do? (I'm not sure if I understand this argument, but I'd still like to be able to explain why it doesn't make sense.)

    -If God has designed everything, doesn't that mean God need a designer as well? Where did God come from?

    -If God is the most amazing designer, then why do some of his Creations exhibit poor design? (Arguments for illness, or children born with deficiencies, or even humans having an appendix.)

    Again, these are not from me. I'm simply looking for reasonable and logical responses to their concerns.
    'Umar, wurood, ibnRobert and 2 others like this.
  2. Mu'awiya

    Mu'awiya New Member

  3. IbnMuhammed

    IbnMuhammed Human

    Dont really understand that question.. Perhaps something to do with the purpose of life? Dont know the question really..

    The questioner has already answered this one quite simply. God exists out of time and space (The laws of which came into existence with the creation of the universe which scientists agree on (Possibly the big bang theory)) so therefore time is not applicable, and the creator has always been.

    Well all I can really think of, is trials for man. We are put on earth in order to be tried in our worship, and devotion to our Lord. Regardless of if we understand the wisdoms of it or not. (E.G Would God ever command a mother to put her baby in a river? Wisdoms may be great, but we may not percieve) As for the rest, tell the person to study nuclear physics, its absolutley amazing how everything in the universe is in an absolute perfect state. Oh and an appendix most likely has a function, that we may have not even discovered yet..

    In terms of answering the above questions, I know for a fact there are far better people who can answer these then I can..

    Rather than debate or discuss these points, I think its most inportant to pose the questions to the source. If the source is correct and true in what it says, which it is and is from God (The Qur'an) then it is not for us to question his commands:
    He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned. (Al 'Anbya')

    Wallahu'alam (and Allah knows best)
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
    wurood likes this.
  4. Mu'awiya

    Mu'awiya New Member

    asalaamu alaykum.

    No matter where God is, if He designed and created us, we should still care about why He created us. You wonder why you are existent, what is your purpose? What is the best guidance and way to follow in life? Islam (meaning: submission to God) is that guidance which leads humans to the best forms of successes. History has proven this, and continues to do so.

    God is uncreated by definition.

    A person having disability is not imperfection in design. Imperfection is subjective. God wanted different humans to have different advantages and disadvantages to test them in different ways, some are poor while being healthy, while others are rich while being disabled. This is not poor design if God intended it to be like this in the first place.

    In regard to humans having an appendix and other organs which scientists claim are not needed, then again - scientists may find advantages for the appendix in the future which they don't know of now. Just because they don't know its use now, it doesn't mean it won't be proven in the future.
  5. Perseveranze

    Perseveranze لا إله إلا الله

    Asalaamu Alaikum,

    Hamza briefly wrote about this, which shows what the problem with the question itself is;

    Statement #3: The temptation is a false one because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer.

    The above statement, which is a contention to the design argument is flawed for two main reasons. Firstly, anyone with a basic understanding of the philosophy of science will conclude that in the inference to the best explanation, the best explanation does not require an explanation! The following example illustrates this point. Imagine 500 years from now, a group of archaeologists start digging in London’s Hyde Park only to find parts of a car and a bus. They would be completely justified in inferring that these finds were not the result of any biological process but the products of an unknown civilization. However if some skeptics were to argue that we cannot make such inferences because we do not know anything about this civilization, how they lived and who created them, would that make the archaeologists conclusions untrue? Of course not!

    Secondly, if we take this contention seriously it could undermine the very foundations of science and philosophy themselves. If we require an explanation for the basic assumptions of science, for example that the external world exists, where do you think our level of scientific progress would be? Additionally if we were to apply this type of question to every attempt at explaining the explanation, we would end up with an infinite regression of explanations. And an infinite regression of explanations would defeat the whole purpose of science in the first place – which is to provide an explanation!

    A Response to The God Delusion

    But regardless, we will never be able to truly comprehend, as Allah(swt) says;

    [HR][/HR]No just estimate have they made of Allah: Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.. [22:74][HR][/HR]No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. [6:103][HR][/HR]So put not forward similitudes for Allah (as there is nothing similar to Him, nor He resembles anything). Truly! Allah knows and you know not. [16:74][HR][/HR]
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
    Hamza Patterson likes this.
  6. Hamza Patterson

    Hamza Patterson Proud Geek

    Allaah is the supreme designer. It's quite late so i will explain in short bullet points Insha'Allaah.

    - Every default design of what Allaah has created is perfect for that genus of whatever it is, whether it is human, animals, plants etc

    -Even 'deficiencies' that we see in ourselves that cannot be attributed to Allaah (e.g. sleep, need to relieve oneself etc), these things are perfect for us as without sleep we would go crazy, without relieving oneself you could die from your own poison, without eating or drinking you could die from starvation.

    -Everything that we need to aid us for our essential needs is there all in the package that Allaah has created us with. E.g. imagine is you couldn't go to the bathroom, or anything even you Achilles in your heel to help you walk.

    -Whenever someone is born with a defect or a is infected with an illness, know that;

    1) That is an exception to the norm of how humans were created and born
    2) There is a reason for why only Allaah knows Best on why a certain person may have a defect or an illness which would take us into a another topic altogether regarding 'the problem of evil' - however let it be known, this does not negate the perfection in Allaah's creation

    -Additionally the most complex thing we know (despite our technology era, is the brain. - no atheist scientist can give an adequate answer on how the mind (thoughts, dreams etc) came in existence or even how the mind works in a comprehensive manner Because they are outside of matter)

    I hope that helps (to a certain degree)
    Chief and abumuwahid like this.
  7. Hamza Patterson

    Hamza Patterson Proud Geek

    Sister Sinog,

    did you manage to read the answers?

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