Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by umar bin khatab, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Many times when debating with rawafid they accuse sunnis of celeberating martydom of al-Hussein (ra) and following the sunnah of bani ummayads by fasting on 10th of Ashoora every year. To find out the truth I shall only quote narrations found in rafidi books.

    ========================== ===========

    Fasting of Ashoora by infallibles


    On behalf of Abu Al-Hassan (as) that he said : "Rasool Allah (saw) fasted on the day of Ashoura."

    1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/29,
    2- Alistibsar 2/134,
    3- Wasael Al-Shia 7/337,
    4- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
    5- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/370-371,
    6- Seyam Ashoura 112.



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    Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: "Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin."

    1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/300, Alistibsar 2/134,
    2- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
    3- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/371,
    4- Jamal luddin mentioned it in 'Fasting of Ashoora page 112,
    5- Al-Kashani 7/13
    6- Hur in Wasael Al-Shia 7/337



    -----------

    And on behalf of Al-Sadiq (rh) that he said: "Whoever is able to fast (month of) Muharram, then his fasting shall protect him from every sin."

    1- Wasael Al-shia 7/347,
    2- Alhadaeeq Alnadhera 13/377,
    3- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-shia 9/474.



    -----------

    The Messenger of Allah said: “The best prayer after the obligatory prayers is the one which is prayed in middle of the night, and the best fasting after Ramadan is the fasting the month known as Muharram."

    1- Wasael Al-shia 7/347,
    2- Alhadaeeq Alnadhera 13/377,
    3- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-shia 9/474.


    -----------

    And Ali (ra) that he said: "Fast on the day of Ashoora 9th and 10th for substitution, for it is an expiation for the the past year, and if someone of you eats (by mistake) should continue his fasting."

    1- Al-Haj Hussein Al-Nuri Tabarsi in Mustadrak Al-Wasael 1/594,
    2- Haj Brujardi in Jaame3 Ahadeeths Al-Shia 9/475.



    -----------

    And Ibn Abbas (ra) that he said: "If one see the crescent of Muharram then start counting, and when he wake up on 9th, wakes on fast", (the narrator) said: And this is how Muhammad (saw) fasted: (he replied): "Yes".

    1- Al-Tusi in Iqbaal Al-Amal page 554
    2- Hur Al-Ameli in Wasael Al-Shia 7/347
    3- Al-Haj Nuri Tabarsi in Mustadrak Al-Wasael 1/594
    4- Jaame3 ahadeeths Al-Shia 9/475



    -----------

    Rafidah did not stop at this in praise of Ashoora, but they even recorded fabricated narration in support of this month.


    Shaykh of cult known by Rafidah as – Shaykh Abu Jaffar Muhammad Bin Al-Hassan Al-Tusi narrates on behave of (infallible) Abu Jaffar who supposed to have said:

    "The Ark settled on Mount Joodi on Ashoora so Nuh (as) ordered those who were with him among mankind and Jinn to fast that day. Abu Jaffar said: "Do you know which day that was?" That was the day on which Allah accepted repentance of Adam (as) and Hawa, and this is the day when the sea got split for Bani Isreal and Fir'aun and those with him were dawned, this is the day when Musa (as) got victory over Fir'aun, and this is the day Ibrahim (as) born, and this is the day on which Allah accepted the repentance of people of Yunus, and this is the day Isa Ibn Maryam (as) born.
    (Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam by Tusi 4/300)


    Whereas Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimahullah) mentioned this hadeeths and called it fabrication.

    "No hadeeth of this nature was known during the best centuries......They also narrated reports concerning the supposed virtues of praying on the day of Aashoorah and other reports saying that on the day of 'Aashooraa' Adam (alaihi as-salaam) repented, the Ark settled on Mount Joodi, Yoosuf (alaihi as-salaam) returned to Ya'qoob (alaihi as-salaam), Ibraaheem (alaihi as-salaam) was saved from the fire, the ram was provided for sacrifice instead of Ismaa'eel (alaihi as-salaam), and so on."


    ========================== ===========

    Finally

    The narrations that encourage rawafid to fast these days came from realiable source (according to their standard) while those which forbid fasting these days came from unauthentic sources as stated by their own scholar Al-Sheikh Al-Haaj Al-Sayed Muhammed Redha Al-Husseini Al-Ha’eri in his book ‘Najat al-Ummah fee Iqamat al-Azaa Ala al-Hussein wal A’emma page 145-146-148, printed in Iran-Qum 1413 hijri’
     
  2. Al Kulayni

    Al Kulayni New Member

    Assalamu Aleykum

    Their ayatullat al-khuï said the same thing in his book al-mustanab al-urwa al-wuthqa u-of-islam.net/uofislam/maktaba/Fiqh/mostanad1/al-soum/02/a305.htm

    فالروايات الناهية غير نقية السند برمتها، بل هي ضعيفة بأجمعها، فليست لدينا رواية معتبرة يعتمد عليها ليحمل المعارض على التقية كما صنعه صاحب الحدائق. واما الروايات المتضمنة للامر واستحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم فكثيرة، مثل صحيحة القداح: " صيام يوم عاشوراء كفارة سنة " وموثقة مسعدة بن صدقة: " صوموا للعاشوراء التاسع والعاشر فانه يكفر ذنوب سنة " (2)، ونحوها غيرها، وهو مساعد للاعتبار نظرا إلى المواساة مع أهل بيت الوحي وما لا قوه في هذا اليوم العصيب من جوع وعطش وساير الآلام والمصائب العظام التي هي أعظم مما تدركه الافهام والاوهام. فالاقوى استحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم من حيث هو كما ذكره في الجواهر أخذا بهذه النصوص السليمة

    hadiths saying that it's mustahab to fast during ashura are sahih according to their standard, and hadith forbidding to fast during ashura are weak.

    they follow ahlelbayt al abyad, not ahlelbayt ar rassul
     
  3. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    Another exposition of the fact that the rawafid don't even follow their own books and make tahreef of them as well
     
  4. Al Kulayni

    Al Kulayni New Member

    Assalamu aleykum akhi Umar

    Could you post arabic textes of these hadith please ?
     
  5. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    عن أبي الحسن عليه السلام أنه قال: {{صام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم يوم عاشوراء}}
    [تهذيب الأحكام (4/29) الاستبصار (2/134)، الوافي (7/13)، وسائل الشيعة (7/337)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/370-371)، صيام عاشوراء (ص 112)].


    عن جعفر عن أبيه عليهما السلام أنه قال: [[صيام يوم عاشوراء كفارة سنة]]
    [ تهذيب الأحكام (4/300)، الاستبصار (2/134)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/371)، صيام عاشوراء (ص 112)، الوافي (7/13)، وسائل الشيعة (7/337)].


    وعن الصادق رحمه الله قال: [[من أمكنه صوم المحرم فإنه يعصم صاحبه من كل سيئة]]
    [وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/377)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/474)].


    وعن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم قال: {إن أفضل الصلاة بعد الصلاة الفريضة الصلاة في جوف الليل، وإن أفضل الصيام من بعد شهر رمضان صوم شهر الله الذي يدعونه المحرم}
    [وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/377)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/474)].



    عن علي عليه السلام قال: {{صوموا يوم عاشوراء التاسع والعاشر احتياطاً، فإنه كفارة السنة التي قبله، وإن لم يعلم به أحدكم حتى يأكل فليتم صومه}}
    [مستدرك الوسائل (1/594)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)].



    وعن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال: {{إذا رأيت هلال المحرم فاعدد، فإذا أصبحت من تاسعه فأصبح صائماً قلت ( أي الراوي ):كذلك كان يصوم محمد صلى الله عليه وآله؟ قال: نعم}}
    [إقبال الأعمال (ص 554)، وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، مستدرك الوسائل (1/594)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)].


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    Rafidi priest authenticated narration that encourage fasting and weaken those which forbid fasting.

    وتأمل أن روايات صوم عاشوراء جاءت من طرق الشيعة بأسانيد معتبرة، في حين جاءت الروايات الناهية عن صومه بأسانيد ضعيفة، وقد اعترف بهذا الشيخ الحاج السيد محمد رضا الحسيني الحائري في كتابه: نجاة الأمة في إقامة العزاء على الحسين والأئمة. [صفحة (145، 146، 148) طبع قم إيران (1413هـ)].
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
  6. Al Kulayni

    Al Kulayni New Member

    Barak Llahu fik
     
  7. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Jazak Allah khair...even though Khoei agrees on authenticity of those narration he forbids his followers to act upo them. Wonder how did he reach to this conclusion? Then read the following:-

    - www.alkhoei.com/arabic/pages/book.php?bcc=747&itg=36&bi=69&s=ct
    - al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=3258


    Is this what you call a marja3? This idiot is not even good for been a book carrying donkey. According him there is not even a single authentic narration that supports prohibition rather there are many authentic narrations encourage fasting as well emphasis about the immense reward it brings. So how did he reach following conclusion?

    “…so probably fasting the day of Ashura is also disliked if it weakens one from carrying out Ashoura Rituals.”

    How can sunnah be abandoned for sake of bida?
    (See bida of ashoura as it is according to sayings of Messenger (saw) and ahlul bait found in their own books)

    As for him reaching to conclusion that it is not a normal fast by quoting a single narration, I say how can a single narration that contradicts many authentic narrations (according his own testimony) is sufficient proof on prohibiting normal fast? Also fasting half day is never known in Islam, never practised by Messenger (saw) or Ali, Hassan and Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all).

    And we have another pig sistani who graduated under this donkey saying Makrooh without any reference to any narration as if islam is his father's property he can say to anything hala, haram makrooh!!
     
  8. useyalogic

    useyalogic New Member

    Salam

    The hadiths about fasting on Ashura are narrated in Bukhari, al Bidaya wa Nihaya, Sunan of Abu Dawood and Sahih Muslim.

    The apparent hadeeth of the Prohet saying you can fast on Ashura took place 3rd year of Hijra. The three narrators are: Abu Hurayrah, Musa Al Ashari, Muawiyah in Abu Sufyan and Ibn Abbas.

    Abu Hurayrah was four years old at the time.
    Musa Al Ashari was in Yemen.
    Abu Hurayrah was in Bahrain until 7th year after Hijra
    Muawiyah ibn Abu Sufyan became Muslim with his father 8th year after Hijrah.

    So how can we accept a hadeeth from these four sources??? Just like some sunni books are weak and trusted, there are also shia books that are considered weak and not trusted by the shias themselves. This includes the hadeeths quoted by the brothers before.
     
  9. so why do great shia scholars like al khoei agrees on the authenticity of those narration? Secondly there should be a reason to say a hadees or book is weak. Just by saying its weak it will not become.

    Moreover are the "BOOKS" quoted as a whole considered weak by shias?

    Regarding sunni ahadees you said three narrators, but you made a mistake yourself by quoting the fourth narrator i.e ibn abbas(ra) and you didnt raised any of your prob with him.
     
  10. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Bump for rawafid...if there are any.
     
  11. useyalogic

    useyalogic New Member

    The Jews had thier own calender and months. Theres no logic in saying they fasted on the 10th of Muharram unless it could be proved that this date ALWAYS coincided with a Jewish day of fast. 1st month of Jews (Abib, later named Nisan) coincided with Rajab of Arabs and the 7th Jewish month, Tishri 1, coincided with Muharram. But Muharram of 2nd Year of Hijra began on 5th July 623 CE, months before Tishri 1 (normally Sept-Oct).

    The month in which God delivered the Israelites from Pharoah was Abib (ie: Rajab) as the Bible clearly says in Duet 16:1. The question is How could the Jews transfer an event of Abib (orignally coinciding with Rajab) to Muharram, in open defiance of thier Torah?

    The biggest question would be if the Prophet was sent with a religion to abrogate all previous religions and shariah, how was it that he would imitate the custom of the Jews?

    Its clear the Jews had no reason AT ALL to fast on Muharram.
     
  12. I could give you many examples but just to answer the stupidity of your question, just one question is sufficient. Dont you believe that the mushriks used to make hajj? Yes or no?

    If yes then why do we perform hajj? Ofcourse you may say that our method differs from them as well as our beliefs for doing that. Same is the reply for the foolish question of yours.
     
  13. useyalogic

    useyalogic New Member

    dont avoid the issue...the jewish dates and islamic dates DO NOT MATCH..so how can we say we are supposed to fast on Ashura?
     
  14. I answered this the biggest question
    I could give you many examples but just to answer the stupidity of your question, just one question is sufficient. Dont you believe that the mushriks used to make hajj? Yes or no?

    If yes then why do we perform hajj? Ofcourse you may say that our method differs from them as well as our beliefs for doing that. Same is the reply for the foolish question of yours.

    Secondly regarding the dates, then are you going to use the tool of the corrupted bible inorder to reject the authentic narrations of prophet(Saw) which mentions that the jews did fast that day?
     
  15. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Listen troll go settle this question with your greatest ayatullats who on behave of your infallibles ones narrated those ahadeeths and some of them even authenticate those narrations.

    To add a side note, are your trying to match todays jewish calender with islamic calender, or todays torah verses to proof the ahadeeths found both with Muslims and rafidah are false?

    Ok then, we all know that the only purpose of jews to settle down in madina was because they had in their scriptures complete description of the holy prophet (saw) including his name Ahmed...

    And when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another in private, they say, "Shall you (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to you [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him , that which are written in the Taurât (Torah)] , that they (Muslims) may argue with you (Jews) about it before your Lord?" Have you (Jews) then no understanding?
    Baqara 2:76

    And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'ân) from Allâh confirming what is with them [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], although aforetime they had invoked Allâh (for coming of Muhammad Peace be upon him ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allâh be on the disbelievers.
    Baqara 2:89

    So since there is no such clear description in todays Torah shall we say that Qur'an is wrong?

    Jews your forefathers are liars who used to tamper their scriptures, so today one cannot take their scriptures or books as proof against authentic ahadeeths but the opposite is true. And it is enough for us to know that there were most learned among the jews living in madinah at the time Messenger (saw) was sent and they said it was 10th of muharam the day Pharaoh was drowned.

    And again i say deal this issue with your ayatullats first.
     
  16. useyalogic

    useyalogic New Member

    I am not sunni or shia just like my Prophet was not.

    Also im not talking about todays jewish calender. Our islamic calender is the same as it was when it started and so is the jewish calender.

    U brothers are not answering the points i raised. How can we relate fasting to 10th muharram when all the official dates do not match up????
     
  17. the hadees states that jews used to fast on 10th muharram..It was 10th muharram for muslims.. but whatever date it was for the jews on 10th muharam of muslims, they used to fast on that day. end of the story. Now if you say that jews were granted freedom from pharaoh on x,y.z day according to bible, then we say that it cannot be used as proof since we dont consider that to be a reliable source.

    And i hope you got a satisfactory response to your most important question.
     
  18. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Yeh, you are not a rafidi but all your source comes from rafidi sites, copy pasting their moronic researches where they at the end said....

    One feels constrained to mention here that this and other such traditions were forged by camp-followers of the Umayyads, after the martyrdom of Imam Husayn, as a part of their campaign to turn the 10th of Muharram into a day of rejoicing. These traditions are of the same genre as those which say that it was on the 10th of Muharram that Noah's ark rested on Mount Arafat, the fire became cool and safe for Abraham, and Jesus ascended to the heaven. In the same category came the traditions exhorting the Muslims to treat 'Ashura as a festival of joy, and to store one's food-grain on this very day as it would increase one's sustenance and bring the blessings of Allah to the household.
    AlMujtaba Islamic Articles

    So what about the tradition with your forefathers or infallible ones O rafidah? This one statement of theirs is enough as a proof for the falsely of this stupid one-sided research. So the reason for this thread was solely to refute rawafid who attack sunnis for fasting on Ashoora while their own sources confirm it. We are in no need of rafidi pussy-cats covering themselves under blanket of taqiyya and trying to question this. If you are man enough, then step forward and answer this double standards by your filthy lying ayatullats.

    Just like your forefathers changed their scriptures, it is not surprise that they also changed their calender dates.
     
  19. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    This article is answer to stupid rafidah allegation

    This is enough to refute your feeble ayatullats.
     
  20. umar bin khatab

    umar bin khatab Anti Majos

    Bump for rawafid (the real nawasib)
     

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