Bukhari and pronounciation of Quran

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by zaid_ibn_ali, Aug 4, 2007.

  1. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member


    Is it the case that Imam Bukhari's opinion in regards to this issue opposed that of the salafi minhaj of today (who say that he who mentions his utterence/pronounciation of Quran as being created is on the wrong path)?
  2. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Imam al-Bukhari never said that. Actually, he declared himself that the one who relates that from him is a liar.
  3. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member

    Are you referring to this tradition:

    Abu ‘Amr al-Khaffaf who said to him: People are examining your words “My pronunciation of Qur’an is created” Bukhari said: “O Abu ‘Amr, remember what I say to you: Whoever claims, among the people of Naysabur, Qamus, Rayy, Hamadhan, Baghdad, Kufa, Basra, Mecca, and Madina, that I ever said: ‘My pronunciation of Qur’an is created,’ he is a liar; truly I never said it. All I said is: The actions of servants are created.”?

    If so, read the bold part in the quote below.

    The following is found in dhahabi's siyar I believe:

    Al-Dhuhli was fierce (shadîd) in his adhesion to the Sunna. He confronted Muhammad ibn Isma‘il [al-Bukhari] because the latter had alluded, in his Khalq Af‘al al-‘Ibad, to the fact that the reader’s utterance of the Qur’an was created. Bukhari made it understood without explicitly saying it, but he certainly made it clear. On the other hand Ahmad ibn Hanbal flatly refused to explore the question, as well as Abu Zur‘a and al-Dhuhli, or indulge in the terminology of dialectic theologians (al-mutakallimûn), and they did well – may Allah reward them excellently. Ibn Isma‘il had to travel from Naysabur under cover, and he was pained by what Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] had done to him. (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:207)


    Al-Hakim [narrated with his chains]: Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] said: “This Bukhari has openly subscribed to the doctrine of ‘pronunciationists’ (al-lafziyya), and for me those are worse than the Jahmiyya.” . . . Ahmad ibn Salama visited Bukhari and told him: “O Abu ‘Abd Allah, this is a respected man [i.e. al-Dhuhli] in Khurasan, especially in this town [Naysabur], and he has thundered with this speech until none of us can say anything to him about it, so what do you think we should do?” Bukhari grasped his beard then he said: (I confide my cause unto Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of His slaves.) (40:44) He continued: “O Allah! You know that I did not want for one moment to settle in Naysabur out of arrogance, nor in quest of leadership, but only because my soul would not let me return to my own country [Bukhara] because of my opponents; and now this man intends harm for me out of jealousy, only because of what Allah gave me and for no other reason.” Then he said to me: “O Ahmad, tomorrow I shall leave and you will be rid of his talk which I caused.” . . . Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub the hadith master said: “When al-Bukhari settled in Naysabur Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj took to visiting him frequently. When the affair of the pronunciation of Qur’an took place between al-Bukhari and [al-Dhuhli] and the latter roused people against him and forbade them to visit him, most people stopped visiting him, but not Muslim. Then al-Dhuhli said: ‘Anyone that subscribes to the pronunciation [being created], it is not permitted for them to attend our gathering.’ Whereupon Muslim placed a cloak on top of his turban, stood up in front of everyone, and sent back to al-Dhuhli what he had written from him carried by a camel-driver, for Muslim openly subscribed to the pronunciation and made no attempt to conceal it.” . . . Ahmad ibn Mansur al-Shirazi also narrated it from Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub, adding: “And Ahmad ibn Salama stood up and followed him.” (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:314-315). Cf. Bayhaqi’s al-Asma’ wa al-Sifat (al-Hashidi ed. 2:20-21 #591).

    The last quote also includes Imam Muslim as holding the same belief.

    Your comments are most welcome.
  4. ali

    ali البريكي

    i think that snippet of dhahabee was either
    1. taken out of context
    2. maybe dhahabee erred, but highly unlikely

    al-Bukharee when asked by his students about the issue of al-lafdhz said
    in response

    1.The quraan is uncreated
    2. The actions of the servants are created
    3. Our recitation is an action

    in that literal fashion.

    His saying is 100 percent true
    The only reason why he was abandoned was because of Muhamamd bin Yahya's inapplicable jarh against him based on Ahmad's saying "Wheoevr says my recitation of the quraan is created is a jahmi"

    BUT, as the sunni Imaams clarified, his statement was applicable only to those who beleived that the quraan is created and in trying to hide their beleif used a hidden fashion of "my recitation" of it is created. Thus while in principle if anyone who beleives their recitation of the quraan is created is indeed correct, those who say it know from the sunni nation only say so on the basis of their beleif that their action is created, and not that the quraan is created, where as the jahmiyyah said so on the basis of their beleif that the quran is created. Thats the fundmental difference. And that was what Muhamamd bin Yahay tried to insinuate on Bukharee

    Thus to repudiate his claim he wrote the Khalq Afal al-Ibaad which most sunni ulema attested that this work cleared his name.

    asalamu alaikum
  5. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member

    I always thought the salafi's believed otherwise?
  6. ali

    ali البريكي

    we do if the intent is to hiddenly say that the quraan is created. But when we say "our recitation of the quraan is created" and admit to it's truth, we only hold that our actual recitation of it is so based on it being an action, and not that the actual quraan we recite is created. But the jahmiyyah had a different intent when they said it.

    But we simply don't say it for the simple fact that
    1. it does not need to be said
    2. its opening a can of worms
    3. it is best to say along with it "al-quraan laysa bi makhluq"
    4. We never say it for the representation of ur aqeedah anyways. We just merely understand from what avenue the people of the past have said it and intended with it.
  7. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member

    hmmm. But how do you know ones intent?

    Though I always did think salafi's believed our recitation was uncreated. Maybe some input of others on this forum to clarify if Brother Ali's words hold consensus amongst salafi's?
  8. ali

    ali البريكي

    by their creedal affiliation
  9. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Yes, I'm referring to this narration:

    1) Narrated by al-Lalika'i with a sound Isnad up to Imam al-Bukhari.

    2) Confirmed in meaning by Imam al-Bukhari himself in the Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad.

    I need an exact quote, preferably in Arabic. Go to www.almeshkat.com and look up the Siyar of al-Dhahabi, search the bookvolume wherein it can be found by Ctrl F and copy/past the part please.

    For now, it is enough that YOU have given us a statement of the Imam al-Bukhari himself, which is narrated by a full chain and accepted by the learned. And this statement belies what some, wrongly, ascribe to the Imam or what they put into his mouth.

    Don't you agree?

    This story does not contain any citation of Imam al-Bukhari on the Lafz being created. Wasn't it this what you asked about?

    This story rather informs us what al-Dhuhli thought about al-Bukhari's beliefs, which is mistaken. For this reason al-Bukhari belied anyone who would put this into his mouth, as you cited this.

    If one read also al-Bukhari's Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad, one comes to know that some followers of Imam Ahmad were mistaken in this credal issue. Actually, Avu Zur'ah, Abu Hatim, al-Dhuhli and whoever follows them deserve to be criticized more than al-Bukhari; all they were not obscure or mujmal in opinioning that the Lafz al-Qur'an is uncreated, a view of which Imam Ahmad himself declared people innovators for.

    As for al-Bukhari, he neither subscribed to its createdness or to its uncreatedness. This would make him following the Sunnah better then them, as Ibn Taymiyyah confirmed. For this reason al-Bukhari said that 'Followers of Ahmad have misunderstood him..' and aired an opinion which is wrong. These followers include al-Dhuhli and his supporters.

    This story says also nothing what Imam Muslim said. It rather informs us implicitly what Muslim opinioned. Surely, the one who knows this affair (fitnah) well wherein al-Bukhari abandoned Naysabur he will confirm that al-Bukhari never believed in such a view; and if he did not believe in it, I doubt Muslim would believe in it too.

    It very easy to list all the scholars who believed in the Lafz pronounced by the slave to be created or uncreated, through the testimony of the scholars themselves or the verifying reporters: Jahm b. Safwan, Bishr b. Ghiyat, al-Karabisi, al-Tarsusi, Ibn Kullab, al-Muhasibi and several others opinioned that the Lafz is created; Abu Zur'ah, Abu Hatim, al-Dhuhli, Harb al-Kirmani and several others (in fact most of the Eastern Hanbalis, incl. the whole Banu Mandah family) opinion its uncreatedness. And then you have those who are upon the most sound opinion, which is Ahmad's opinion: from its upholders are two great leading Imams of old, Abu Bakr al-Marwazi and his student Abu Bakr al-Khallal, and many many others. In this category fall al-Bukhari for sure, as his Khalq indicates clearly.

    I don't know of a single knowledgeable scholar in creed who said that al-Bukhari believed in the Lafz being created or uncreated. al-Subki claimed that, but he is not knowledgeable about al-Bukhari's beliefs and other early Hanbalites.

    wa Allahu A'lam
  10. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member

    The narration again:

    examining your words “My pronunciation of Qur’an is created” Bukhari said: “O Abu ‘Amr, remember what I say to you: Whoever claims, among the people of Naysabur, Qamus, Rayy, Hamadhan, Baghdad, Kufa, Basra, Mecca, and Madina, that I ever said: ‘My pronunciation of Qur’an is created,’ he is a liar; truly I never said it. All I said is: The actions of servants are created.”

    But isnt Imam Bukhari alluding to the fact that the pronounciation/recitation is created by this last statement? And that Imam Bukhari is merely saying that he never mentioned it in the wording that Abu Amr mentioned? Even though they mean the same thing, but Abu Amr's wording makes Imam Bukhari sound like an utterer of non-subtle words i.e. someone who is going round saying "our recitation is created" like he is delving into sensitive and meaningless kalaam issues? Isn't Imam Bukhari in his statement aknowledging that he did believe so, but never said it in that 'fashion'?
  11. ali

    ali البريكي

    even though muhamamd bin yahya was the mihna for bukhari at that time, i dont think abu zurah and abu hatim were that rigid.Ibn Abi Hatim records in his jarh wa t'adil

    "My father, and abu zurah did not abandon bukharee until he manifested the issue of al-ladhz"

    Their abandonedment, form what i know was in his using an expression that was never used before in combination.

    the three statements bukahree said whcih i gave above in rpely to his students who tried him were all truths in seperateness. But he was the first to bring them together and on that basis they feared any infringement on the aqeedah even in something as minute as this.

    but as for Muhamamd bin yahay, it is easily detected that he was somewhat extreme inthis matter for before bukahree was even tried, hhis students asked him if they could sit with bukharee. he allowed them BUT he told them "Dont question him about the issue of al-Lafdhz for I fear he may aid the saying of the jahmiyyah" or something like this.

    firstly, why would he harbor ill feelings of bukhare. it is either that or the classic telling the baby not to do something, while wanting it to happen, so as to see the evidence of such imtihaan. This is why the jarh of Muhamamd bin Yahya is not accepted as bukharee's reknown was nearly outweighing his. But he was still thiqaa, haafidh.

    asalamu alaikum
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2007
  12. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Dear brother,

    Imam al-Bukhari does NOT allude to - anything that is far from being a fact - the pronunciation of the Qur'an being created.

    What he DOES tell us in HERE is the act of the servants being created: pronunciating poetry, music or any other texts brought forth by creation.

    Is it difficult to see the difference in this?

    Imam al-Bukhari opinioned the following:

    The Qur'an is Allah's Speech, uncreated. In whatever way it is, written, heard, recited or pronounced, it stays: uncreated.
    The Lafz of the Qur'an, i.e. the recitation or pronunciation, by a creature does not make the Qur'an that is recited created.
    If one opinions that the Lafz is created, then they mean not the Lafz bi'l-Qur'an itself which is uncreated but they mean their act of pronouncing. For the Lafz can mean the Qur'an itself, or the act.
    When al-Karabisi and his likes brought these two together, i.e. the Qur'an and Lafz, they made what was plain and clear into obscure and doubt.
    For this reason the one who says 'the Lafz al-Qur'an is created, he is a Jahmite'; and the one saying 'the Lafz al-Qur'an is uncreated, he is an innovator'. Since both forms are innovated, one by pure Jahmites and others by those infected by Jahmite doctrines or because of ignorance.

    Imam al-Bukhari did not profess the creation of the Lafz al-Qur'an. He professed, like Ahmad b. Hanbal and every man with sense, that our pronunciation, speaking, laughing, walking, running, eating, drinking etc. are all created, since: man is created, therefore all his acts are created.

    al-Bukhari wrote:

    Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad.. (meaning: Creation of Servant's Acts)

    .. wa'l-Radd 'ala'l-Jahmiyyah wa'l-Mu'attilah (meaning: Refutation of the Jahmites and Negators)

    This is a refutation of both groups: Lafz al-Qur'an being uncreated, which is innovative and a statement that is obscure and unclear; Lafz bi'l-Qur'an is created, which is precisely what Bishr al-Marisi opinioned.

    This is Imam al-Bukhari's Aqidah.
    moubeen likes this.
  13. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    One thing is sure, dear brother al-Boriqee:

    Imam al-Bukhari never expressed the formula: My pronunciation of the Qur'an is created.

    Another thing which is certain, is that the formula: My pronunciation of the Qur'an is uncreated, is innovative and blameworthy. This is textually narrated from Ahmad and others, even while we know many eminent scholars expressed this.

    I don't think Imam al-Bukhari is blamed for something he's innocent because of his own words, whether said in conjunction or seperate in whatever majlis or work.

    What happened is that Imam Ahmad was a popular and great Imam after the Mihna. So many people came to learn from him and his close major students. I've said in this forum that Ahmad had probably the largest following from the Salaf, together with Malik b. Anas.

    What happens if one has a large following is that the followers are of different degrees in tersm of knowledge, comprehension and understanding. You have smart 'students', normal students and you have dumb ones. This happens always.

    Now, I can't name you 'dumb ones' but I only express it as such to make a point. The point is:

    At a certain moment one follower of Ahmad, can't remember his name, came from far and went to the Imam. As usual, many Khurasanians, Syrians, Maghrebians etc. went to Ahmad to benefit or just to see him. This follower went to too Ahmad and asked him about the Qur'an.

    In those days after Ahmad was released this issue was still hot. In particular the subject of the Laf bi'l-Qur'an, a side-issue innovated by a man from Tarsus or al-Karabisi and which spread among the Sunnites. Ahmad knew of this Fitnah and he blamed al-Karabisi and others severely for this saying,

    "Bishr al-Marisi came, then followed by al-Karabisi"

    He rejected those who said the Lafz bi'l-Qur'an is created, declaring them Jahmites. This incl. al-Karabisi and other prominent scholars. He once said about this false doctrine against an interlocuter who assumed no harm is such a statement,

    "With what, then this, came Jahm?!"

    So the doctrine of Lafz bi'l-Qur'an Makhluq is a Jahmite doctrine, as worse as the Khalq al-Qur'an actually.

    Back to the single follower we've mentioned above:

    This follower came to Ahmad and asked him about such a similar issue. The man then went away and twisted Ahmad's statement - not willingly, but thru misunderstanding or a false inference - citing the Imam incorrectly and falsely as:

    "The Lafz bi'l-Qur'an ghair Makhluq!"

    So when this follower went back to his country, I believe the East where most of the followers of this innovative tenet lived, he aired this. This reached some faithful and more competent students or followers of Ahmad and they informed the Imam of this.

    The Imam went mad, very mad. He called for the man in question who aired that false statement and spread it. When he was brought to him he said to him:

    "Did you tell the people that I said: Lafz al-Qur'an is uncreated!?!?! Did you?!? Did you?!?!"

    He went very mad and the man said he didn't say but understood this. So Ahmad made then, again, very clear to that particular follower what is correct. Then the person went away and probably spread what was sound.

    Now, all this is narrated in a book specifically authored by the successor of Ahmad b. Hanbal in terms of comprehensive knowledge, piety and leadership: Abu Bakr al-Marwazi. It is quoted in full almost by Abu Bakr al-Khallal and later by Ibn Taymiyyah and others.

    Abu Bakr al-Marwazi, who died in 275 I believe, wrote this book on Ahmad's views on the Lafz al-Qur'an. It is probably the oldest book on this subject. This man is the most knowledgeable of Ahmad's beliefs and therefore the beliefs of the Ahl al-Sunnah who are uninfected by Jahmite beliefs. He did not write this book out of air. He wrote it to counter the spread of the idea that:

    'The Lafz bi'l-Qur'an is ghair Makhluq' - as aired by the follower who misunderstood Ahmad.

    It is this doctrine which was upholded by the Imams I mentioned above, cf. Abu Hatim, Abu Zur'an, Ibn Abi Hatim (who was once a scribe for al-Bukhari) and others. They believed this to be Ahmad's view and the correct one.

    And the reason they believed this, and therefore critical of al-Bukhari and others who never expressed this innovative view, was because of its spread there - them assuming it to be the opinion of Ahmad! al-Bukhari knew Ahmad better and the Sunnah, i.e. sound I'tiqad.

    So what did al-Bukhari do? When being confronted in his region by questions etc. he expressed NOT the view al-Dhuhli and his likes opinioned, that is: the Lafz bi'l-Qur'an is uncreated. Then, I think, some Fitnah-makers confronted the Imam with all kind of questions on the Lafz, hoping to make him fall or something like that.

    al-Bukhari then made his opinion clear, which was twisted by others. Just like Ahmad's opinion was twisted by a follower of his, which the latter acknowledged and retracted in front of the Imam. But the harm was then done already. In fact, none other than al-Bukhari referred to the 'harm' in the Khalq wherein he stated that followers of Ahmad were mistaken!

    So Bukhari wrote the Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad, wherein he proved without a doubt the correct view on the deeds of peoples and the deeds of Allah/created and uncreated. Bukhari was not tempted at any time to express the sound belief on the Qur'an. Rather, al-Bukhari expressed what before him Ahmad expressed and others and al-Dhuhli and his likes were mistaken

    wa- Allahu A'lam.
    moubeen likes this.
  14. ali

    ali البريكي

    barakallahu feek akhee


    also it was his students that cuased his trial for him because they divided into two campls, one saying "you see he did say the quraan is created" and the other saying "No he didn't" and they were the more well reserved. kinda like the sp students versus the actual students of knowledge when coming across a statement from an alim.

    akhi zaid

    bukharee did not say "my recitation is created"

    all he said was

    1. the Quraan is not created
    2. the actions of the servants are created
    3. my recitation is an action

    what this construction is to be understood is that the only "created thing" within this issue is his "action" of reciting, and not what he is reciting i.e. the quraan.

    thus while he may have been the first to have combine these three truths at one time (which was the problem for abu zurah and abu hatim for the fear of any infringement of the aqeedah no matter how small it was since Ahmad was no gone), his words represent the greatest of wisdom ever since he made it because it gives us a tool to use in fighting neo jahmi rhetoric in that they should say to us "oh you mujassims say that our recitation or our actions are not created, this is tashbeeh" and trying to intend by that the quraan.

    and to personally clear his name from whoever tried to insinuate that he beleived that the quraan is created, then he wrote his book khalq afal al-ibaad, half of which is dedicated to the declaration of takfeer and heresy for the one who beleives that the quraan is created.

    i hope this makes things clear now akhee
  15. Abou_Tourab

    Abou_Tourab New Member

    assalam alaykoum

    shaykh al 'uthaymin said :

    فصل: في اللفظ والملفوظ
    الكلام في هذا الفصل يتعلق بالقرآن. فإنه قد سبق أن القرآن كلام الله غير مخلوق. لكن اللَّفظ بالقرآن هل يصح أن نقول إنه مخلوق أو غير مخلوق؟ أو يجب السكوت؟
    فالجواب أن يقال: إن إطلاق القول في هذا نفياً أو إثباتاً غير صحيح . وأما عند التفصيل فيقال: إن أريد باللفظِ التَّلفظُ - الذي هو فعل العبد - فهو مخلوق لأن العبد وفعلَه مخلوقان، وإن أريد باللفظ الملفوظُ به فهو كلام الله غير مخلوق لأن كلام الله من صفاته، وصفاته غير مخلوقة.
    ويشير إلى هذا التفصيل قول الإمامِ أحمدَ رحمه الله: ( من قال لفظي بالقرآن مخلوق، يريد به القرآنَ، فهو جهمي ) . فقوله ( يريد به القرآنَ ) يدل على أنه إن أراد به غيرَ القرآن - وهو التلفظ، الذي هو فعل الإنسان - فليس بجهمي. والله أعلم.
  16. zaid_ibn_ali

    zaid_ibn_ali Active Member


    Many thanks for the replies by the way. Some very good info there.
  17. Abou_Tourab

    Abou_Tourab New Member

    assalam alaykoum

    shaykh al 'uthaymin said :

    (........) The answer is that as for making a general, absolute statement either way is not correct. As for making a specific, detailed statement, then if what is meant by ʺspeakingʺ is simply uttering the words, which is the action of the servant, then it is created because the servant and his actions are both created. However, if what is meant by ʺspeakingʺ is that which is spoken (the actual words), then it is none other than the speech of Allaah, and not created. This is because the speech of Allaah is one of His Attributes and none of His Attributes are created.

    There is a statement of Imaam Ahmad that indicates this. He said, ʺWhoever says, ʹMy speaking with the Qurʹaan is createdʹ and he means by that the actual Qurʹaan, then he is a Jahmee.ʺ

    His statement, ʺand he means by that the actual Qurʹaanʺ indicates that if what is meant is not the actual Qurʹaan, but rather the mere uttering of the words which is an action of people, then he is not a Jahmee, and Allaah knows best.
  18. ali

    ali البريكي

    ahsanta akhee

    thus the truth has been made clear
  19. Taalib-'Ilm

    Taalib-'Ilm Member

    as-Salamu 'Alaykum.

    Akhi Abu Abdallah. The book by Abu Bakr al-Marwazi, what is it called? And is it Matbu' in full or is it Mafqud? And can you mention to me where it is quoted with Ibn Taymiyyah and al-Khallal? And who are the others who quoted it, and can you give me references also? I'm sorry for the many requests.

    Wa Barak Allahu Ta'ala Fik.

    was-Salamu 'Alaykum.
  20. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    Walaikum as-salaam bro

    I think there is a PDF of that book somewhere

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