Conversions in Germany

Discussion in 'Global Affairs' started by Al_Zahir_Baybars, Nov 13, 2007.

  1. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member


    I was scrolling through youtube not too long ago and for fun decided to type in conversions in Europe, it was not all too surprising to find that the majority of these conversions were in Germany. Throughout my little dabbles in the history of Germans I have found that many famous Germans have glorified Islam, from poets to statesmen so this is why the shock wasn't too great, lol.

    I can imagine that brother Suhaib will have a lot to add to this thread and I eagerly look forward to all sorts of websites, statistics, and stories of individuals and their personal accounts of what brought them to Islam. I think it would be nice to see a nation in the heart of europe, an industrialized, clean, and cultured nation in europe, go green and bare a crescent on their flag. The way things are going that may not be too far off.

    I wondered if anyone else has noticed this, has something to add, or even if this topic has been brought up before, for some reason I think it has but this could be because of the discussions I get into with friends so I am rather unaware of it, hahaha.
  2. ibnYaseen

    ibnYaseen Rabbighfir lee

    I didn't get the joke?!

    There was a scaremongering article in the BBC not long ago regarding Russia and Moscow, about how the high rate of conversions to Islam meant that by 2020 the Muslims would outnumber all else and be the majority of the population. However, this wouldn't make the country magically turn in to an Islamic state, like to what you are alluding to in your post.

    As for a country in Europe becoming Islamic though, don't hold your breath! The West would not stand for a run-down, poverty-stricken, starving nation such as Somalia to be Islamic... do you think an Islamic country in Europe has any chance?
  3. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member

    No joke implied merely that I think I may have mentioned this topic before.

    As for what I am alluding to, well I mentioned a possibility, ever heard the saying plan for the worst and hope for the best?, merely hoping for the best. Now I dunno what I have said towards you to make you respond to a harmless post with such aggression, but I simply ask you for a little civility.

    As for what i believe regading the existance of a muslim presence in Europe, well, they are trying to stop it but they don't seem to be having much luck, with the way immigration, conversion, and birth rate are in favour of the Muslim populace I'd say they are doing a poor job, well at least from where I am thats how it comes across.

    I have been trying, lately, to view things more optimisticly, not to lose grasp of reality all together though. So try not to tread on me.
  4. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    I would like to gather some quotes, facts, biographical sketches, and other nuggets of information on this topic. But in the mean time, I present what some well-known German thinkers had to say about Islam....

    Islam and the German Philosophic Tradition
    by Suhaib, 7 Dhul-Qidah 1428 / 16 November 2007

    A poet both captures the essence of a people and influences their culture in a profound manner. The poet expresses various modes and norms through the medium of language. This is why among non-Muslims, the most sympathetic to Islam have been poets. Because once they encounter a Book which is unlike any human endeavor, they recognize immediately the miraculous nature of the Holy Qur'an.

    It is no accident the modern German nation-state was founded by poets and philosophers, whereas France was founded by lawyers. Whereas France is based on a law and political ideology, Germany has always defined itself in terms of culture and völk (the people). The German conception of a state based on the organic traditions of a people stand in stark contrast of the French concept of a nation-state based on ideology.

    The Islamic ideal of an umma founded by the firm bonds of a spiritual world-view, not mere lines in the sand or political institutions, likewise stands in stark contrast to those ideas held by the nations which historically colonized the Islamic lands. There are remarkable parallels between the umma and the völk. So in our very discourse, we find ourselves holding many similiarities with the German poets. In this essay, I shall examine some statements by four great minds of German cultural tradition - Goethe, Hegel, Nietzsche, and Rilke, insha'Allah.

    I. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

    We begin with Goethe, whom Nietzsche considered "an incident without further consequences in the history of the Germans." His influence on the German political and cultural tradition is remarkable. When the new Republic was declared in 1918, they chose Weimar as the new capital since it had been the city of Goethe.

    Islam is based on knowledge, of the Divine Unity (tawhid) and relation between the human being and their Creator. The methodology of seeking knowledge and reflecting on the very meaning of life and the universe, deeply impressed Goethe in his conversations with his secretary Johann Peter Eckermann:

    "What is remarkable are the teachings with which the Mohammedans [sic] begin their education. As the foundation of their religion, they establish in their youth the conviction that man cannot encounter anything but what an all-guiding Divinity has long ago decreed; this equips and reassures them for their entire lives, and leaves them needing little else.

    "....there is basically some of this belief in each and every one of us [fitra], without us having been taught it. 'The bullet that does not have my name on it will not hit me,' says the soldier in battle. And how should he keep up his courage and spirits under extreme danger without such confidence?...[It is] a doctrine of a Providence which remains aware of the smallest detail, and without Whose will and permission nothing can occur....

    "The Mohammedans [sic] thereupon begin their teaching of philosophy with the doctrine that nothing exists about which you cannot say the opposite. They exercise the minds of their youth by having them find and articulate the contrary opinion of every proposition, which inescapably leads to great skill in thought and speech.

    "Then, once the opposite has been claimed about every proposition, doubts arise as to which is actually true. But they do not tarry in doubt. Rather, it drives the intellect to examine more closely and to ascertain; and, if performed correctly, from thence derives that certainty which is the goal in which man finds complete reassurance. You can see that this teaching is lacking nothing, and that for all our systems we are no further on, and that absolutely nobody can get anywhere with them."

    Goethe collected Arabic manuscripts and these included the Qur'an. He liked to copy down Arabic duas and reflect upon their deeper meaning. He studied the various translations of the Qur'an and sought out the one which best reflected the true meaning of the original, but recognized it was a Book unlike any other:

    "....[he intended] to celebrate respectfully that night when the Prophet was given the Koran completely from above. No one may wonder about the great efficiency of the Book. That is why it has been declared as uncreated by real admirers. This book will eternally remain highly efficacious" (Noten und Abhandlungen zum West-östlicher Divan, 1814, WA I, 17, 153).

    As a poet, Goethe revered the miraculous nature of the Qur'an and respected its original meaning could only be expressed in the Arabic language, of which it was the most beautiful expression:

    "In no other language spirit, word and letter are embodied in such a primal way" (Letter to Schlosser, January 23, 1815, WA IV, 25, 165).

    "Whether the Koran is of eternity? / I don't question that!... / That it is the book of books / I believe out of the Muslim's duty" (WA I, 6, 203).

    Goethe admired the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and acknowledged the profound evidences of his prophethood, and praised his virtues at a time when many others were attacking him:

    "He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as a divine law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment" (Noten und Abhandlungen zum West-östlicher Divan, 1814, WA I, 7, 32).

    His deepest admiration for Islam went hand-in-hand to his open doubt of Christian doctrine, such as the Trinity and "faith with no works". He told Eckermann his belief there was "much nonsense in the doctrines of the [Christian] church" (March 11, 1832). He also affirmed the Islamic belief concerning Jesus in beautiful lines of poetry:

    "Jesus felt pure and calmly thought / Only the One God; / Who made himself to be a god / Offends His holy will / And thus the right has to shine / What Mahomet also achieved; / Only by the tem of the One (Allah) / He mastered the whole world" (WA I, 6, 288).

    Goethe rejected the idea of the Crucifixion, which he considered a "cursed insolence to play with secrets that are hidden in the divine depth of suffering" (Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre).

    He regarded Islam as the purest expression of belief in the Divine Decree: "The religion of Mohammad gives the best proof of this" (WA I, 33, 123). Goethe reflected upon tawhid to understand one's own human nature:

    "That philosophical system of the Mohammedan [sic] people is an excellent measure which one can apply spirit because it indicates for man the unity within his own self" (Noten und Abhandlungen zum West-östlicher Divan, WA I, 7, 42).

    The woman he sought to marry after his first wife died, herself died in a terrible accident. Although Goethe was stricken with grief, he soon viewed it as a clear warning that nothing happens except according to the Divine Predecree: "And thus we have to remain inside Islam, (that is: in complete submission to the will of God)" (WA IV, 27, 123).

    No one can escape the fate which has been preordained for them: "If Allah had determined me to be a worm, He would have created me as a worm" (WA I, 6, 113). Concerning the verses of the Qur'an and the Arabic duas:

    "They represent the wonderful guidance and providence coming out of the unexplorable, inconceivable decree of God; they teach and confirm the true Islam, the absolute submission to the will of God, the conviction, that no one may avoid his once assigned destiny" (WA I, 7, 151).

    Everything within nature, even the smallest particle, does not operate except according to Al-Qadar (Predecree): "What people do not and can not realize in their undertakings and what rules most obviously at its best where their greatness should shine - the chance as they call it later - exactly this is God, who here directly enters and glorifies Himself by the most trifling" (Conversation with Riemer, November 1807).

    Commenting on the metaphor of the fly expressed in the Qur'an (Sura al-Baqara, 2:25), Goethe realized "God's greatness in the small." He was especially fond of metaphors, and compared the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to a flowing stream which washes away the filth: "Head of created beings, Muhammad" (WA I, 6, 482). Referring to the pagan Quraish who could only see the material and challenged the Prophet: "Wonders I can not do said the Prophet, / The greatest miracle is that I am" (Paralipomenon III, 14, WA I, 6, 476).

    Goethe believed those who reject Islam do so because they have a limited understanding of only the material and these people prefer to live according to their own profane desires rather than reflecting on how Tawhid and the Predecree manifests itself in everything which is created:

    "Stupid that everyone in his case / Is praising his particular opinion! / If Islam means submission to God, / We all live and die in Islam" (WA I, 6, 128).

    II. Did Goethe Embrace Islam?

    This now brings us to a rather cryptic statement expressed by Goethe, to the effect that "The poet....does not refuse the suspicion that he himself is a Muslim" (WA I, 41, 86). Does this mean that Johann Wolfgang von Goethe embraced Islam at least as much as the contemporary society would allow him to openly express?

    Certainly Goethe had a broad understanding of Islam, based on the idea of submission to the Will of God and acceptance of the Predecree. He admired numerous elements of the Islamic system, accepted the Divine nature of the Qur'an and the truth of the prophethood of Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). He understood that all creation shall one day be held accountable for their deeds on this earth: "It fits....with every religious-reasonable view and is an Islam to which we all have to confess sooner or later" (WA IV, 34, 50).

    We know that when a group of Bashkir Muslims from the Russian army of Tsar Alexander visited Germany in January 1814 (i.e., Prussia and Russia were then allied with each other against Napoleon), Goethe visited their jumu'ah service and recollected his pleasant memories in a letter:

    "Speaking of prophecies, I have to tell you that there are things happening these days, which they would not have allowed a prophet to say. Who would have been allowed some years ago to say that there would be held a Mahommedan [sic] divine service and the Suras of Koran would be murmured in the auditorium of our Protestant gymnasium [secondary school] and yet it happened and we attended the Bashkir service, saw their Mulla and welcomed their Prince in the theatre. Out of special favour I was presented with a bow and arrows which for eternal memory I will hang above my chimney as soon as God has decreed a lucky return for them [i.e., Goethe often allowed his close friends and students to borrow his possessions]" (WA IV, 24, 91).

    With the aforementioned evidence, can we safely conclude whether Goethe actually took the shahada and embraced Islam? Perhaps not, but we conclude this section with a few thoughts expressed by the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), who was very fond of two poets (Antarah and Umayya ibn Abu as-Salt) who did not embrace Islam but whose poetry expressed beautiful ideas reflecting Islam, and one poet who did embrace Islam before his death (Labid):

    Once a verse of an Arab poet named 'Antarah was recited before the Prophet: 'I have spent several days and nights in toil that I may be able to secure lawful livelihood.' On hearing this, the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) expressed his appreciation: "Never has the praise of any Arab excited me so much as to desire to see him. I instinctively wish to see the writer of this verse" (Sahih Muslim, Vol. IV, Lahore: Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, 1978, pp. 1220-1222).

    Umayya was an Arab poet who belonged to the tribe of as-Saqib and was a scholar of Christianity and the Bible. He woved many spiritual themes into his poetry, such as Resurrection, Angels, and the Accountability on the Day of Judgement. He died the same year as Hudabiyya, although he never embraced Islam. Labid was a pre-Islamic poet whose poetry breathed the spirit of Islamic beliefs. Living until he was 157 years old, Labid survived long after to embrace Islam in the latter period of his life and abandoned any frivolous poems.

    Amr ibn Sharid (radiallahu anhum) narrated that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "He (Umayya) was about to become a Muslim," and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Mahdi: "He was almost a Muslim in his poetry" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab Al-Shi'r [Book of Poetry], Chapter CMXLV, no. 5603).

    Abu Huraira (radiallahu anhu) narrated that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "The truest word uttered by a poet is this verse of Labid: 'Behold! apart from Allah everythig is vain', and Umayya ibn Abu Salt was almost a Muslim" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab Al-Shi'r, no. 5605).

    [Part two to be continued soon, insha'Allah....]
  5. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    III. Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel (1770-1831)

    Hegel, known for his dialetical interpretation of history and ideologies, was also a student of religion who sought manifestations of the Weltgeist (World-spirit). He viewed Islamic monotheism (Tawhid) as the purest and most universalist type which the Christian Trinity had compromised and the Judaic Yahweh had particularised as a tribal God:

    "While the West began to shelter itself in the political edifice of chance entanglement and particularity the very opposite direction necessarily made its appearance in the world, to produce the balance of the totality of spiritual manifestation.

    "This took place in the Revolution of the East, which destroyed all particularity and dependence, and perfectly cleared up and purified the soul and disposition; making the abstract One (God) the absolute object of attention and devotion, and to the same extent pure subjective consciousness - the Knowledge of this One alone the only aim of reality: making the Unconditioned (das Verhaltnisslose) the condition (Verhaltniss) of existence" (Hegel, Philosophy of History, section on the German World, chapter II: Mahometanism; quoted in Muhammad Khair, "Hegel and Islam," The Philsopher, Vol. LXXXX, No. 2).

    IV. Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

    The philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche was known for his nihilism and positions which are generally considered as contrary to religion. But he had some positive things to say about Islam and contrasts it favorably with Christianity:

    "If Islam despises Christianity, it has a thousand-fold right to do so: Islam at least presupposes that it is dealing with men.

    "Christianity has cheated us out of the harvest of ancient culture; later it cheated us again, out of the harvest of the culture of Islam. The wonderful world of the Moorish culture of Spain, really more closely related to us, more congenial to our senses and tastes than Rome and Greece, was trampled down (I do not say by what kind of feet). Why? Because it owed its origin to noble, to male instincts, because it said Yes to life even with the rare and refined luxuries of Moorish life.

    "Later the crusaders fought something before which they might more properly have prostrated themselves in the dust - a culture compared to which even our nineteenth century might well feel very poor, very 'late.' To be sure, they wanted loot; the Orient was rich. One should not be so prejudiced. Crusades - higher piracy, nothing else!...

    "The German nobility, Viking nobility at bottom, was in its proper element here: the church knew only too well what it takes to get the German nobility. The German nobility, always the 'Swiss Guards' of the church, always in the service of all the bad instincts of the church - but well paid. That the church should have used German swords, German blood and courage, to wage its war unto death against everything noble on earth! There are many painful questions at this point. The German nobility is almost missing in the history of higher culture: one guesses the reason - Christianity, alcohol, the two great means of corruption....

    "'War to the knife against Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam' - thus felt, thus acted, that great free spirit, the genius among German emperors, Frederick II. How? Must a German first be a genius, a free spirit, to have decent feelings? I do not understand how a German could ever have Christian feelings" (Friedrich Nietzsche, Der Antichrist, 1888, sections 59-60).

    V. Rainer Maria Rilke (1875-1926)

    The poet Rainer Maria Rilke admired the beauty and essence of Islam, which he viewed as the most pristine and natural expression of religion. He made the following beautiful insight concerning the nature of religion:

    "Religion is something infinitely easy, simple. It is not a knowledge, not a content of feeling..., it is not a duty and not abstinence, it is not a limitation. Rather, it is in the perfected expanse of the universe: a direction of the heart....When the Arab turns to the east at certain times and prostates himself, that is religion. It is hardly a 'belief'. It has no opposite. It is being moved naturally within an existence through which the wind of God blows three times daily, by being at the very least: supple" (Quoted in Abu Bakr Rieger, "The Poets and Islam," Lecture: Wolfsburg, 2007).

    As with countless other poets, Rilke was especially overtaken by the miraculous nature and beautiful essence of the Holy Qur'an. He wrote to Lou Andreas-Salome on December 19, 1912 from Ronda in Andalusia:

    "....I am reading the Qur'an here and am in awe, awe, awe - and once again my love of Arabic is awoken" (ibid).

    On March 19, 1913, Rilke wrote a letter from Paris to Sidonie Nadherny von Borutin, in which he marvelled at the remnants of the Moorish civilization he saw during his trip to Andalusia:

    "the immense central mosque in Còrdoba which I have thought about so much, a courtyard where one could come together, where one could sleep, pray and or gain access to the fountains....a sublime enclosure for the traveller and the warrior in Islam, an area which encloses itself tightly around the thousands who come to it but which encompasses each and every heart in a generous and expansive way. I hesitate from enclosing a picture of the mosque in this letter - no! I do not want to anticipate or detract in any way from your own view of it" (Quoted in Rieger, "Islam in Europe," Lecture: Granada 2003).
  6. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member

    Salam brother,

    As I had hoped you brought the hammer down, I knew about Goeth from prior conversation threads but Nietzsche? wow, I think I will have to pick up some books on the history of these people, thanks for the information brother.

    I understand that Goeth was a poet that wrote stories similar to that of shakespear, am I coorect? if so any recommendations?.

    Thanks Again.
  7. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    Statistics gleaned from a number of news reports all point to a drastic increase in conversions to Islam in Germany, a trend which has surprised those elements who direct the society. In the last decade, according to estimates from the German Islam archive, the average annual conversion rate was 300. Most were Germans who converted to Islam when they married Muslims.

    But there has been a dramatic increase in conversions, which are drawn from all sectors of society and embrace Islam for a multitude of reasons. As a brother from Germany noted elsewhere on this forum, there were 1000 reverts in 2004, 4000 in 2005, and 14300 in 2006. Jazakallah Khair, for the information.


    "According to German TV reports, over 4000 Germans converted to Islam in 2006. In 1989 a national register run by an islamic organisation listed over 10,000 German converts. It is estimated that the total number of German converts is around 200,000 or higher."


    "Islam in Germany,"


    "Germans reverting to Islam have risen dramatically in the past few years and are keen on leaving their indelible marks on society, a leading German newspaper has reported. The number of reverts has climbed remarkably to 800 last year [2003] compared to 300 cases each year in the past, the online English version of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung said Friday, August 27 [2004]."

    After noting how some Germans avoid the necessary formalities of taking the Shahada but adopt Islamic practices or beliefs, the report said of those who do formally convert to Islam:

    "According to latest estimates, the number of Germans who reverted to Islam is between 13,000 and 60,000. The rise represents a good percentage of the European country's three million Muslims. They are not only rising in numbers, but also showing great enthusiasm to learn more about Islam, establishing Islamic publishing houses or bookstores to highlight the true essence of their new religion."


    "Muslim Reverts on the Rise in Germany,", August 29, 2004,


    "The number of Germans converting to Islam has quadrupled in recent years, a German news magazine reported. Between July 2004 and June 2005, some 4,000 Germans converted to Islam, four times more cases than in the year before, German news magazine Der Spiegel said in its latest issue, citing a study on Islamic life in Germany financed by the Interior Ministry to be published later this year."


    "More Germans convert to Islam," United Press International, January 16, 2007,


    "The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year - despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public....

    "In Germany, some 4,000 people converted to Islam between July 2004 and June 2005. The study, which was financed by the Interior Ministry and carried out by the Soest-based Muslim institute Islam Archive Germany, reveals that the number of converts increased four-fold in comparison to the previous year."


    Lutz Ackermann, "Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers - And Find Them in the Koran," Der Spiegel, January 18, 2007,,1518,460364,00.html


    "A report prepared at the request of the German Interior Ministry revealed that 5,000 Germans converted to Islam between July 2004 and June 2005, a figure that is four times higher than that of the previous year. In previous years the average number of Germans who converted to Islam [annually] stood at only 300."


    Eldad Beck, "Germany: Sharp rise in Muslim converts," January 18, 2007,,7340,L-3353920,00.html


    Historically, the relation of Germany and the Islamic world was quite positive. Friedrich II der Hohenstauffen, the King of Germany and Sicily, whom successive Germans praised including Nietzsche and Hitler, pursued a bold policy of friendship with the descendants of Salah al-Din in Egypt and opposed the fanaticism of the Crusaders, even preferring the company of Muslims. Many Germans preferred to expand their boundaries to the Baltic and Slavic lands rather than squander their efforts in an effort which benefited only the Catholic hierarchy in Rome and the monarchs of England and France.

    Their cultural traditions had long prepared them for unitarian tendencies which are best expressed by the pure Islamic Tawhid. The earliest German tribes were known for their moral-ethical code and harmonious living with the natural world, no separation between the divine and temporal realms and an adversion to the hedonistic lifestyle of Rome. With the advent of Christianity in Europe, the majority of Germanic tribes followed the true message of Jesus (peace be upon him) until the Trinitarian doctrine was forced upon them literally by the sword.

    In the modern age, Germany did not face the same rates of conversions to Islam as other European nationalities. A number of English and Dutch sailors entered into the service of Islamic Barbary states, while French and Slavic advisors joined the Ottomans. The reason was because Germany was not involved in commercial or political dealings with other nations outside Europe. Germany was a weak and decentralized nation, so Germans did not get the opportunity to personally encounter Islam and the Muslims on a direct basis.

    The earliest recorded conversion of a German to Islam occurred with Adam Neuser (1530-1576), a Unitarian preacher in Heidelberg, who sent a letter to Ottoman Sultan Selim II explaining his conclusion that Islam was the true religion and expressing his willingness to settle in Turkey. The letter was intercepted by the Hapsburg authorities and Neuser was imprisoned along with two other Unitarians in 1570. After a number of successive escapes and imprisonments, Neuser finally reached Constantinople in 1572 and embraced Islam. (See Muhammad 'Ata'ur-Rahim and Ahmad Thomson, Jesus, Prophet of Islam, London: Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd., 1417/1996, pp. 168-172). For a copy of Adam Neuser's letter to Sultan Selim II:

    The liberal ideas of the Enlightenment led many Europeans to question Christian doctrine, particularly Germans. Friedrich der Grosse (Frederick the Great) of Prussia, known for his religious tolerance, expressed his willingness to open a mosque in his kingdom if there had been Muslims living there.

    Under Friedrich Wilhelm I, twenty Muslim soldiers served with the Prussian forces and in 1745, Friedrich der Grosse established a unit called the "Muslim Riders", consisting of Bosnians, Albanians, and Tatars. In 1760, the Bosniakcorps was formed with 1000 men. In 1798, a Muslim cemetery was established in Berlin to service these soldiers.

    In Weimar, the great poet-philosopher Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) was praising Islam like no other non-Muslim had before him. Friedrich Rückert (1788-1866) was another German poet who praised Islam and incorporated eastern themes into his works. Frustrated at the lack of authentic unbiased information about Islam, he translated the Qur'an into German. Rückert has influenced many German students of Islam, including the Sufi convert Annemarie Schimmel.

    Prussia established close political and commercial ties with Turkey, at a time when other European powers were plotting to divide the Ottoman empire among themselves. German military advisors arrived to help train the Ottoman military. The close partnership between Prussia and Ottoman Turkey intensified following the reunification of Germany in 1871.

    A number of German adventurers served with the Ottomans and embraced Islam. One of the most prominent was Karl Detroit (1827-1878), descendant of a Huguenot family in Magdeburg, who jumped ship as a youth in Istanbul and entered the Ottoman service as Mehemet Ali. He rose to become a general in the Ottoman army and a chief negotiator for the Sultan in 1878.

    Next time, I shall continue with the fascinating account of how some Germans discovered the truth of Islam in a time of vicious war and untold devastation, including some officials who were forced to carve out new lives for themselves in the Arab world, insha'Allah....
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2007
  8. umm lina

    umm lina abu lina

    Jazakal Allah kul kheir brother suhaib for the information you gave us, though I'm not surprised at all to see people converting to Islam whether in Germany or anywhere else because Islam is going to rule the whole world. It’s the Instinct of every human being. Don’t forget we were all created Muslims and no soul will live in peace (Sakeena) and happiness without Islam. The real problem is greed and stubbornness of human beings. Any wise person should allow oneself to read about this religion and the truth of this religion. May Allah guide all human beings to his deen.Ameen.
  9. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    Germany was allied to Ottoman Turkey during World War I. Following the war, the Germans were defeated and humiliated just as the Arabs had been betrayed by the false promises of Britain and France. This led many German strategists to define their geopolitical position as being tied with the oppressed countries against plutocratic finance-imperialism, for these were the same imperialist countries which forced the humiliating diktat of Versailles and had literally plundered Germany.

    These German strategists included Karl Haushofer and Otto Strasser, both of whom favored a third positionist Europe opposed to both the capitalist and communist powers. The interest of these strategists rested in championing the cause of the oppressed "have-nots" against the imperialist "haves". This is the backdrop which eventually led to another phase in the conversion of some Germans to Islam.

    With the advent of the National Socialist movement, a number of the new leaders made complementary statements regarding Islam in contrast to Christianity and Judaic-derived ideologies. These figures even included Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, but this is a different matter which does not have relevance to our current topic of conversions. However, the attitudes of these leaders is summed up in the following report:

    In November 1938, the newspaper Die Welt, referring to an article that appeared in Der Arbeitsmann, wrote: "The bulk of the article consists in singing the praises of the Islamic concept of fate, as an exemplary comprehension of the idea of destiny, and in the opposition of such comprehension to weak and effeminate Christianity." Referring to the Berlin weekly Fridericus, a French magazine wrote that "the number of conversions to Islam does not cease augmenting in Germany."

    Fridericus attributed this success to the manner Islam "proclaims vital principles of a rather well established ethics, in which it is very possible to conform." Harmonizing the ideas of justice and mercy, Islam establishes itself as the active and superior religion to Christianity and "it is especially the Nordic man who feels attracted towards this liberating creed and towards this idea."

    Der Welt concluded its report: "The Austrians returned to the Reich have to learn that in their new capital, the ruling spheres prefer the religion of Mahomet [sic] to Christianity and that this religion sees growing the number of its followers in the official registers, while the propaganda in favor of the abandonment of the Christian churches always stretches more" (Cited in Omar Amin Mutti, "Nazisme et Islam,"


    Before we continue with our story, I feel it necessary to express some remarks concerning the Third Reich. While I do not necessarily agree with everything tied to National Socialism and certainly not profane racist neo-Nazism, there were many admirable elements.

    I know this first-hand, from my paternal relatives who grew up during this time period. They were far from the Nordic caricature and their veins also carried Spanish blood with the expressive Mediterranean traits. This was not uncommon, as much of the German population was far from the Nordic caricature, not to mention the leaders themselves.

    Because of these experiences, I know that most of what is passed off as having occurred during the Third Reich is nothing but a load of bunk, as history is written by the victors and the influence of the vengeful Jewish leaders in the West is beyond dispute. Much of what is passed off as having been the National Socialist racial policy, is merely propaganda and hypocrisy on the part of countries with their own reprehensible imperialist legacies.

    I do firmly believe we should research the history of that period with fairness and honesty, coming to our own conclusions without having it spoon-fed to us by the powers-that-be. That being said, I would like to clarify the issue with an astounding quote which illustrates how National Socialist officials viewed their own ideology:

    "German racialism meant re-discovering the creative values of their own race, re-discovering their culture. It was a search for excellence, a noble idea. National Socialist racialism was not against the other races, it was for its own race. It aimed at defending and improving its race, and wished that all other races did the same for themselves.

    "That was demonstrated when the Waffen SS enlarged its ranks to include 60,000 Islamic SS. The Waffen SS respected their way of life, their customs, and their religious beliefs. Each Islamic SS battalion had an imam, each company had a mullah. It was our common wish that their qualities found their highest expression. This was our racialism. I was present when each of my Islamic comrades received a personal gift from Hitler during the new year. It was a pendant with a small Koran. Hitler was honoring them with what was the most important aspect of their lives and their history. National Socialist racialism was loyal to the German race and totally respected all other races" (Leon Degrelle, "Epic: The Story of the Waffen SS," The Journal for Historical Review, vol. 3, no. 4, pp. 441-468).


    In World War II, Germany fought against those same countries which colonized the Muslim lands, namely Britain and the Soviet Union. Because Germany was engaged in a struggle against these capitalist and communist imperialist powers, thousands of Muslims flocked to fight alongside Germany. The largest numbers were Bosnians, Albanians, Chechens, Tatars, and various Muslim peoples of the Soviet Union, not to mention a small division of Arab resistance activists (Frei Arabien).

    Mohammad Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti of al-Quds (Jerusalem), led the Palestinian struggle from exile in Berlin, and former Iraqi prime minister Rashid Ali al-Gailani led his country's struggle against British imperialism from the German capital. There was a pioneering group of Arab journalists, writers, and activists who fought for the freedom of their respective countries from their sanctuary in Germany.

    This provided the perfect opportunity for Germans to make contact with Muslims and study Islam. One of these was SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Hintersatz (1886-1963), an Austrian who converted to Islam and adopted the name Haroun al-Rashid Bey. He headed the Osttürkischen Waffen-Verbände der SS, which included Uzbeks and Volga Tatars and distinguished itself in service in Poland. (Ataullah Bogdan Kopanski, "Muslims and the Reich," Barnes Review, September-October, 2003, pp. 30-31).

    Keeping in mind what was mentioned earlier concerning German geopolitical strategy, the rise of German power and development of Islamic divisions provided the impetus for such a bold endeavor. The main obstacle was the old guard of diplomats who preferred a conservative policy which did not offend the Western powers or threaten the balance of power. But there was a youthful element within the German Foreign Office which sought to take advantage of the anti-colonial struggle and pursued a pro-Arab policy against the Zionists and Western imperialists, as this was in Germany's interests.

    These included Dr. Fritz Grobba, a veteran of the Foreign Office since 1924 who later served as the German ambassador to Iraq and Saudi Arabia. An admirer of Islamic culture who was nicknamed "the German Lawrence of Arabia", he became close friends with Husseini. After the war, Grobba converted to Islam and brokered deals between Nasser and the Germans and Soviets. (Kevin Coogan, Dreamer of the Day: Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist International, New York: Autonomedia, 1999, p. 383).

    Another was Werner-Otto von Hentig, a close friend of Grobba and former head of the Arab Division of Joachim von Ribbentrop's Foreign Office. After the war, he spent much of his time in the Middle East. In 1955, King Saud appointed Hentig Saudi Arabia's chief European advisor. While serving as German ambassador to Indonesia, he also accompanied the Saudi delegation to the April 1955 Afro-Asian Conference held in Bandung, as a Special Counselor. Hentig advised the Arabs to adopt a neutralist policy and maintain their independence from both the USA and USSR. (ibid., p. 384).


    Following the war, there were numerous instances of German National Socialist officials and former SS officers who relocated to Arab countries, converted to Islam, and took up new bureaucratic or military positions in their host country, particularly in Egypt and Syria (cf., Jean and Michel Angebert, The Occult and the Third Reich, New York: Macmillan, 1974, pp. 275-276). The following is a list of some of these former German officials, most of whom converted to Islam:

    * Erich Altern (Ali Bella): Former commissioner of the Gestapo's Jewish affairs section, he later settled in Egypt and instructed Fatah Palestinian resistance fighters.

    * Hans Appler (Salah Chaffar): Associate of Goebbels who served with the Egyptian Ministry of Information in 1956 and later with the Islamic Congress.

    * Franz Bartel (Hussein): Assistant to the Gestapo chief in Kattowitz, he served in the Jewish department of the Egyptian Ministry of Information beginning in 1959.

    * Walter Baumann (Ali Ben Khader): SS Sturmbannführer who served in Warsaw, he worked in the Egyptian Ministry of War and became an instructor with the Palestine Liberation Front.

    * Fritz Bayerlain: Former aide-de-camp of Afrika Korps General Erwin Rommel, he helped to repair tanks for the Egyptian army.

    * Hans Becher: Head of the Jewish section of the Gestapo in Vienna, he became an instructor for the police force in Alexandria.

    * Wilhelm Beissner: A chief of the Central Office for Security of the Reich (RSHA), he later settled in Egypt.

    * Lt.-Col. Bernhard Bender (Bashir Ben Salah): Gestapo official whose knowledge of Yiddish had enabled him to infiltrate Jewish underground organizations in Warsaw. He later advised the political police force in Cairo.

    * Werner Birgel (el-Gamin): SS officer from Leipzig who served with the Egyptian Ministry of Information.

    * Capt. Wilhelm Böckler (Abd al-Karim): SS Untersturmführer who served in Warsaw, he became an official at the Israel department of the Information Ministry after fleeing to Egypt in 1949.

    * Wilhelm Börner (Ali Ben Keshir): SS Sturmbannführer who later served with the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior and instructor for the Palestine Liberation Front.

    * Alois Brunner (Ali Mohammed): SS official who held a senior position of the Jewish Department under Eichmann, he later became an advisor for the Egyptian and Syrian special services. The Mossad has repeatedly attempted to assassinate him in Damascus, where he is said to currently reside.

    * Friedrich Buble (Ben Amman): SS Obergruppenführer with the Gestapo, he became director of the Egyptian Department of Public Relations in 1952 and advised the police force in Cairo.

    * Franz Bünsch: Associate of Goebbels, he became a BND correspondent in Cairo and then helped organize the Riyal in Saudi Arabia in 1958.

    * Major Erich Bunzel: SA Obersturmführer and close aide of Goebbels, he later served in the Israel department of the Egyptian Ministry of Information.

    * Joachim Däumling (Ibrahim Mustafa): Chief of the Gestapo in Düsseldorf, he advised the Egyptian prison system and was a member of the Radio operators' services in Cairo. He was employed to help improve the Egyptian intelligence agency.

    * Capt. Hans Eisele: SS doctor who later became staff physician at the Egyptian missile and aircraft facility at Helwan, until his death in 1965.

    * Lt.-Gen. Wilhelm Farmbacher: Wehrmacht and SS general who supervised the Vlassov army in France in 1944. He later served as a military advisor to Nasser and joined the central planning staff in Cairo.

    * Eugen Fichberger: SS Sturmbannführer

    * Col. Leopold Gleim (Ali al-Nasher): SS Standartenführer in Warsaw and head of the Gestapo Department for Jewish Affairs in Poland, he later served with the Egyptian state services.

    * Gruber (Aradji): A long-time aide of German Abwehr (army intelligence) chief Canaris, he fled to Egypt and worked with the Arab League in 1950.

    * Baron von Harder: Formed assistant of Goebbels, he settled in Egypt.

    * Ludwig Heiden (Luis el-Hadj): SS official and Weltdienst (German News-Agency) journalist transferred to the Egyptian press office during the war. He emigrated to Egypt in 1950 and wrote books in Arabic on the Third Reich.

    * Herbert Heim: SS Hauptsturmführer who later served as a doctor with the Egyptian police force.

    * Franz Hithofer: Gestapo official in Vienna who fled to Egypt in 1950.

    * Ulrik Klaus (Muhammad Akbar)

    * Karl Luder: Former chief of the Hitlerjugend (Hitler Youth) in Poland, who later served with the Egyptian Ministry of War.

    * Gerhard Mertins: SS Standartenführer

    * Rudolf Mildner: SS Standartenführer, chief of the Gestapo in Katowitz and police force in Denmark. He settled in Egypt in 1963.

    * General Alois Moser: SS Gruppenführer who served in the Ukraine and later became an instructor with the Green Shirts paramilitary movement in Cairo.

    * Oskar Münzel: Armored SS General who fled to Egypt in 1950 and organized the Egyptian Parachute Corps.

    * Gerd von Nimzek (Ben Ali): Fled to Egypt in 1950

    * Achim Dieter Pelschnik (el-Said): Fled to Egypt

    * Franz Rademacher (Thome Rossel): Director of the Jewish section of the German Foreign Office from 1940 to 1943, he fled to Syria and worked as a local journalist.

    * Hans Reichenberg: A former SS officer who settled in Tangier, where he created the Arabo-Afrika import-export company, which helped to smuggle weapons to the FLN anti-imperialist resistance in Algeria.

    * Schmalstich: SS Sturmbannführer

    * Major Seipel (Emmad Zuhair): SS Sturmbannführer and Gestapo official in Paris who served with the security services of the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior.

    * Heinrich Sellmann (Hassan Suleiman): Gestapo chief at Ulm who served with the Egyptian special services, Ministry of Information, and adviser to counter-espionage.

    * Ernst-Wilhelm Springer: Former SS official who had helped formed the SS Muslim Legion and found refuge in Cairo after the war, where he served as a gun-runner for the FLN.

    * Albert Thielemann (Amman Kader): SS chief in Bohemia who served with the Egyptian Ministry of Information.

    * Erich Weinmann: SS Standartenführer and Sicherheitsdienst (SD) chief in Prague, he fled to Egypt in 1949 and advised the police force in Alexandria beginning in 1950.

    * Werner Wietschenke: SS doctor who served as a doctor with the Egyptian military.

    * Heinrich Willermann (Naim Fahum): SS doctor who served as a doctor with the Egyptian military.

    * Ludwig Zind (Muhammad Saleh)


    Ludwig Ferdinand Clauss (1892-1974), a German anthropologist and theorist on race, who highlighted the "spiritual" race over the blatant racism of the materialists. Clauss encountered Islam when he lived among the Bedouin Arabs. He admired the beauty of Islam and its pure doctrine of the Absolute Unity (Tawhid), embracing Islam and writing on Arab cultures. (Robert Steuckers, "Introducciòn a la obra de Ludwig Ferdinand Clauss,"

    Johannes von Leers (1902-1965) was a close associate of Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels and an accomplished writer during the Third Reich. A close friend of Mohammad Amin al-Husseini, he fled to Egypt in 1955 and converted to Islam with the name Omar Amin von Leers. Although he became a member of Nasser's Ministry of Information, Leers cultivated ties with the Ikhwan al-Muslimeen (Muslim Brotherhood). Leers continued the struggle against Zionism from his new homeland. I conclude with some of his quotes on the subject of Islam, as they epitomize the feelings of others like him....

    In Der Kardinal und die Germanen, Leers viciously criticized the Crusades and contrasted the traditional Islamic tolerance towards other religions with the cruel and destructive violence of Christianity in its conquest of Germanic Europe (pp. 23, 48, 52, 68). In Blut und Rasse in der Gesetzgebung, Leers noted parallels between Islam and ancient Germanic traditions, as the "divine law and human law were still closely joined" and right was "a fragment of the universal divine order" (p. 6).

    In mid-December 1942, the publication Die Judenfrage contained an article on “Zionism’s postwar program”, in which it demonstrated how Zionism intended to “conquer Palestine for itself alone and thereby establish a position for world power in the future.” Leers contributed an article, entitled “Judaism and Islam as opposites.”

    Besides discussing the strategic issues of the campaign in North Africa, Leers examined moral and intellectual foundations for an alliance between the Third Reich and the Arabs and Muslims. He praised the anti-Zionist resistance of the Arabs: “If the rest of the world had adopted a similar policy, we would not have a Jewish question today” (Jeffrey Herf, The Jewish Enemy: Nazi Propaganda During World War II and the Holocaust, Boston: The Belknap Press, pp. 178-182).

    A staunch admirer of the Arabs who acquired an excellent understanding of Arabic, he translated into German some texts and rulings of the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs in Cairo. Among the scholarly Islamic texts he translated into German, were a text of Shaykh Muhammad Abu Zahra on the Islamic conception of war and rulings of Jihad (Begriff des Krieges in Islam) and a text of Ibrahim Muhammad Ismail on Islamic economic doctrine (Der Islam und die heutigen Wirtschaftstheorien).

    In a letter to H. Keith Thompson, a New York-based businessman with anti-Zionist sympathies who once served as a secretary to Husseini in Beirut, Leers wrote in English (he was an accomplished linguist):

    "The Islamic bloc is today the only spiritual power in the world fighting for a real religion and human values and freedom. I think sometimes if my nation had got Islam instead of Christianity we should not have had all the traitors we had in World War II, two million women would not have been burnt as 'witches' by the Christian churches, there would have been no Thirty Years War which destroyed Germany and killed more than half of our nation.

    "One thing is clear - more and more patriot[ic] Germans join the great Arab revolution against beastly imperialism. In Algeria half a company of German soldiers, dragging with them two French officers and two non-commissioned officers, have cut their throats in the view of the Algerian revolutionaries and have gone on the side of the Algerians and have embraced Islam. That is good!

    "To hell with Christianity, for in Christianity's name Germany has been sold to our oppressors! Our place as an oppressed nation under the execrable Western colonialist Bonn government must be on the side of the Arab nationalist revolt against the West. Let Adenauer be furious that honest German patriots are not extradited to him or to his British or American bosses, by those freedom-loving Arab countries. May the British swine call us ‘meddlers’—in short time British meddling in the Middle East will be over, as it has finished in Iraq where the infidel servants of British imperialism are all killed.

    "I hamd ul Allah!...the backing given by USA to the Jewish tyrants in Germany will make the German nation revolt.Indeed, for our nation there is only one hope - to get rid of Western imperialism by joining the Arab-led anti-imperialist group" (Coogan, op. cit., pp. 382-383)


    The next two sections I intend to discuss, will be some interesting information on some Germans who fought alongside the armed resistance of Muslims against Zionism, beginning from Al-Nakhba in 1948 up to the current age. The final part will be less "controversial", having nothing to do with politics. In it, I shall mention some of the trail-blazers of the Muslim revert community in Germany and their efforts in spreading Islam in the society, insha'Allah....
  10. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member

    Brother I must tell you, I am on the edge of my seat, I have been searching for information like this a very long time, I and my father are both quite fond of the history of the third riech and earlier, both of us great admirers of the German culture as well, so this is thrilling information for us.

    Not to interrupt your postings brother, and if you wish, to post afterwards, but did Richard Wagner contribute any thoughts on the topic?

    Inshallah, brother, your next posts will be just as thrilling I look forward to them.
  11. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    I must say that I was intrigued by this subject, because I found it strange that spreading of Islam in Germany would be so much more successful than in France or UK which have larger Muslim population. But yes, it turns out that it is true. I’ve stumbled along the way on some very interesting information about religions in Europe that I think we all might find interesting:

    1. While there is only one Muslim convert per 100 immigrant Muslims in France and UK, there is almost seven converts per 100 foreign Muslims in Germany.
    2. Islam is by far the fastest growing religion in Europe, but number of Muslims is growing primarily due to immigration and to lesser extent due to higher birth rate. Number of converts in most countries is almost insignificant, statistically speaking of course.
    3. By the year 2025 (if current trends continue) Muslims should become the largest religious group in EU with as much as 18 % of entire population being Muslims. That however doesn’t mean that there will be more Muslims than non-Muslims in EU, since 65% of people of EU by then would not belong to any religion.

    And few more things related to this:
    1. Number of atheists/agnostics in Europe is rising faster than number of believers of all religions put together.
    2. Number of atheists/agnostics is already higher that number of believers in Germany, Check Republic, Sweden, Norway and Netherlands. By the year 2020 the only European countries with higher number of religious than unreligious people will be countries of Orthodox Christianity. By the year 2030, not even them.
  12. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    Wa Alaykum as-Salam,

    I have not read much of his work, aside from his Faust. But as it relates to works that I would recommend, as a Muslim, then they would most certainly be Mahomets-Gesang and the West-&ouml;stlicher Divan, the two works from which many of these quotes were drawn.

    Wa iyyakum. If Islam will "rule the whole world", it will be due to its superior creed and sincere arguments, which will cut through all the other ideologies not with the sword of force but that of persuasion. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) prophesied how Islam would enter into every home, which we see now with the television, internet, books, etc.. At the rate it is going now, there will be few people who do not have either Muslim family members or close acquaintances. The message of Islam is accessible to all who have an open mind.

    Ameen! The fitra is something which cannot be obliterated in its entirety, for it is the innate qualities of a human being. We are by nature spiritual beings, just waiting for that deep reservoir inside us all. May Allah (Azza wa-Jall) guide us all to that which is our pristine nature, for who knows best about the creation than the One Who Created us?

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no statement from Richard Wagner on either Islam or the Muslims. At best, there are some themes from his works which might resonate with us to a certain extent. For example, he often portrayed Jesus (alaihi sallam) as a Redeemer who would arrive at the end of times, similar to our belief that he will arrive to defeat Masih Dajjal. His works also betray the long German passion for the metaphysical Grail, which is always regarded as a quest for knowledge from the East.

    I would say this is largely because there are large numbers of foreign-born Muslims in France and the UK, while there is a smaller proportion in Germany. I would be interested in reading the source for this statistic, which I don't discount in the least.

    Although I would disagree with the statistic about converts, which is certainly increasing, I would agree with the fact the number of Muslims in Europe comes more from immigration than birthrate. While the latter is important, statistics reveal that succeeding generations of Muslims tend to have less children than the new immigrants.

    The Islamophobes highlight the alleged astronomical birthrates of Muslims, sentiments which often border on the paranoid or even racist ("third-world breeders"), but it is a fact that the birthrates of the world population decline with the rise in living standards and an industrialized economy.

    The disparity between the numbers of different groups just boils down to who has a larger rate of population growth, which I view as a strength and a sign of a strong nation.

    More and more Christians in Europe are doubting their religion and either become atheists/agnostics or in growing numbers embrace Islam.
  13. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    I don't think there is anything in Wagner's work even remotely connected with Islam.

    But you would be able to find Islamic influence in Mozart's music. He composed operas called “Harem nights” and “Escape from harem” that take place in Turkey. Many were enthrallad by the orient those days, mostly due to first European translation of the “Arabian Nights”.

    My browser at work is set up to delete history and cache at each closing, because it's not smart to let management know how you spend your time. :) But I'll try to Google it again.

    Muslim birth rates are dropping in general, not only in Europe. Average family in Pakistan today has half the number of children than it did 30 years ago. While a women in Iran before the revolution would have seven kids on average, today it has come down to just 2.3.

    You are from America so you don't feel that, but here in Europe organized religion is literally dying. People these days receive very good education, so it's not hard for them to see that religious teachings have flaws. People are leaving religions, or more often, stay in them without truly following them.

    And do not think for a second that Islam in Europe is not affected by this!
    Although during the war religious feeling of Bosnian Muslims might have risen, it is very obvious that it didn't last long. Recently they organized a celebration of 500 years since the first masjid was erected in Bosnia. Sponsor of the celebration was Sarajevo brewery which at the event sold to gathered Muslims about 12 000 liters of beer. So much for Islamic awakening there.
    The only reason why Islam is not decaying at the same rate as other religions is extremely high imigration of religiously indoctrinated Muslims from Asia and Africa.
  14. Suhaib Jobst

    Suhaib Jobst 'Amal Ahl al-Madina

    Indeed there were some Islamic influences in his work, due largely to the common European fascination with the East and Ottoman Turkey was still relatively advanced at that point. In September 2006, a Berlin production of Idomeneo caused uproar when it included a scene with Idomeneo carrying the heads of Neptune, Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad, I seek refuge in Allah! But the original work did not contain such a scene, although Mozart was known as a humanistic free-thinker.

    The first European translation of the Arabian Nights was the French version by Antoine Galland in 1704. Among the writers and poets who had works influenced by the Nights: Goethe, Dumas, Poe, Tennyson, Wordsworth, Burton, and Lovecraft. It also influenced the European occultists, beginning with the Polish nobleman Jan Potocki; this was due to the Sufic undertones of the Nights and its Persian/Indian origins.

    But I am not ignorant of this fact, as I have many relatives in Europe. In any case, it is true that of all the "industrialized" countries the United States is the most "religious". The strength of the Evangelical Christians is powerful and they continue to represent a sizable minority.

    At the same time, however, statistics show that those naming "moral issues" as their primary concern in voting is on the decline. If they are entrenched, it is not due solely to their huge numbers but also their social cohesion and dedicated political pressure-groups.

    I would attribute it to the excesses of Christianity, which failed to provide any real solutions to the problems of the modern age. It stems very much from the materialist ideology, which reacts to these excesses by having gone to the other extreme. Islam, on the other hand, stands distinct from both extremes and corrects their respective faults.

    Perhaps right to a certain extent, but the war also allowed the Bosnian Muslims to encounter other Muslims around the world. The Naqshbandi tariqa remains predominant and the mufti is a modernist, but I am certain the Islamic faith of the Bosnians is stronger than it was previously.

    Could it not be that Islam continues to hold appeal to people who reject the excesses of the modern societies? Could it not be that many believe there is a higher existence for them than this limited worldly life?
  15. TT

    TT New Member

    This thread is very interesting Jazakhallah Khayr brother Suhaib Jobst!
  16. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Yes, I’ve heard about this, but I don’t know well what’s going on in America.

    IMHO, Islam is even less adequate for modern world. Christianity is at least very flexible, so it handles changes easier, while rigid Islam looks like dinosaur to a lot of modern people.

    There was a certain amount of radicalization among Bosnian Muslims during the war, but things have mostly returned to normal since than. In my life I have socialized with many native European Muslims (Bosnian, Serb, Montenegrin, Albanian, Turkish) and believe me when I tell you – native European Islam is dying just like other religions in Europe are.

    Recent growth of Islam in Europe is almost exclusively due to explosive immigration. To help you understand things better, let me run some numbers for you.
    In the last 50 years over 30 million Muslims has immigrated into Europe, which is equal to half the current population of France. Each year another 1.3 million Muslims enter Europe and this number is rapidly rising.
    Growing EU economy is hungry for the cheap labor force, but short term benefit of accepting so many Muslims is negligent when we look at potential hazards of such policies.
    Sadly, experiences from Thailand, Macedonia, Nigeria and Philippines show that Muslims tend to get aggressive as soon as they reach 15 to 20 percent of population. Now, I remain hopeful that such scenario will be avoided, but we are looking at the possible civil war in Europe in as little as a decade.

    As statistics show, most people reject religions altogether. We seem to be entering new era of atheism, not the forced one (as it was in USSR and China under communism), but the voluntary one. Even more than atheists, people are turning agnostics – they believe that there exists higher intelligence (God if you will), but do not believe that religions explain it correctly.
    And I’ve noticed that a new group is rising in numbers quickly. The non-religious people who I can’t label as either atheists or agnostics, people who simply do not particularly care if there is God and do not feel the need for religion in their lives.

    Now, I’m not going to deny that Islam had modest success in appealing to Europeans, but this was inevitable, since cultures that come in contact always influence each other. If you would now settle 30 million Christians into Arabia some Arabs would certainly convert, influenced by the newcomers.
    And remember that Islam is relatively new thing. During the 80’s there was a mania of converting to Buddhism in Europe when people came in touch with Japanese culture which became very popular due to sudden huge economic growth of Japan.
    And let’s not forget that it is also the unfair treatment of the Muslim countries (occupation of Iraq, etc.) that is creating a lot of sympathy among the Europeans for Islam and is certainly driving many to embrace this religion.
  17. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member

    Morbius, for the sake of credibility how about listing some sources as brother Suhaib does, maybe you're information might be taken more seriously.

    As I see it Christianity's flexibility as you would see it is, is not truly flexibility for the modern times but for modern western society, examples include homosexuality being ok'd, adultry and divorce being taken a lot more lightly. There seems to be a total disregard for modesty as well. This flexibility is more of a "bend faith to suit society" type of thing. I am not saying to cut someone's head off here but Islam is a lot better than christianity in keeping a society morally intact.

    A religion is a set of moral codes for which society should govern itself as well as the individual, which is why atheism is not exactly that great either it relys on man made laws which may be sufficient to keep the society somewhat intact but the individual is left to lead a completley immoral life of lies, deciet, adultry, etc cause these things are not covered as illegal in any man made laws.

    I personally never heard of buddhism being very big other than amongst retarded hollywood celebs, all of whom I despise, so I could care less.

    I won't totally deny this, but I do not believe that the conversion to atheism is so incredibley great, also any conversion to atheism and agnostic belife I would attribute to mass media, religion is generally against immoral activities on the individual level, which are becoming more and more accepted in the west by the youth and hence immorality becomes the in thing, like I have always believed, in the west and in much of Europe, "bad is cool". My source for this is your television, turn it on tune in, watch your celebs and music "artists" videos, watch your animated shows such as south park and family guy, and try telling me this perpetuates religion or morallity.

    Sry brother Suhaib for the interuption there, please continue with the info you were posting.
  18. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Most of the statistics I give out here is what I’ve compiled from the Internet over the past several months. Do not take them to be absolutely reliable, but I believe that they can be used as a solid reference point.
    For instance, when I say that there is about 30 million immigrants in Europe, you should know that I have used average assessment. Some sources mention only about 20 million immigrants, while others claim almost 40 million. It is impossible to say for sure how many foreign Muslims have entered Europe due to large scale illegal immigration, so all of those numbers are just estimates.
    If interested in statistics, you should always first try Wikipedia. Although its data isn’t always reliable, you can almost always find links to research on the particular subject there.

    All the religions are like that. Those that didn’t conform to the times didn’t last long.

    Well, Romanian folklore claims that during the rule of Vlad Dracula a man could leave his purse at the middle of the street and find it tomorrow intact at the same place he left it. Everyone would be to scared to steal it, frightened by the brutal punishments that Vlad used even for the smallest of crimes.
    You can always make people act morally by punishing them brutally, but such cure is worse than the disease.

    I wouldn’t agree with this. If you are right, than countries such as Germany, Sweden, Netherlands or Norway would be hell on Earth. So, how come those countries are actually prosperous, socially humane, economically developed and with low crime rates?

    Also, take a look at this map of EU, it represents the percentage of population that believes that God exists. As you can see, the general rule is the more developed the country, the less people believe in God.

  19. Al_Zahir_Baybars

    Al_Zahir_Baybars New Member

    I already said I am not talking about capital punishment or cutting heads, I am talking about moral strength of an individual. Additionally even if brutal punishment was the case and people feared it, its not unreasonable to assume that given time this would be the standard everyone would adapt to and then it could be removed, but I am not gonna dive deeper into that.

    Once again this is not what I meant, I am pretty sure I made things clear, tell me how many laws there are against, lying, decietful behavior and adultry in any of the aforementioned nations. If you are trying to tell me that these things don't exist there than you're off your rocker. If you are saying these things make those countries hell on earth than you're contradicting your usual liberalist stance. To govern oneself morally for these sort of things the strength must be from within, no man made law can persuade you to reject things like.. oh say lying. Sure as hell an atheist won't see a problem with lying if it means getting ahead.

    ok so what? if you make a post like this you are trying to convince someone of something, you made the post not me, if you're trying to make a convincing arguement post the sources, thats all I am saying otherwise don't bother cause no one is gonna take it seriously, least of all from you ( I say this based on the popularity you've made for yourself here).
  20. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Well, you can teach your child to follow the rules by beating it bloody every time it breaks them. Eventually, child will learn and stop getting beaten, but that is still not good parenting.

    No person can live without moral code. If he isn’t thought ethics by others, he will create his own. The corner stone of morality doesn’t have to be religion. In fact, as we can see, for most Europeans it isn’t.

    Would you say that Germans are lying, cheating and deceitful nation? I wouldn’t.
    Like I told you, one doesn’t have to find the source of morality in religion. I know many atheists and agnostics that are very moral people.

    And BTW, lying is a crime if you caused someone harm by it. For instance, if financial damage has accrued as a result of your deliberate lying, the victim is entitled to full compensation of damages from you.

    Do you honestly think that there is a website with all the possible statistics you can think of out there, so I can just give you a link to it?
    Statistics that I’ve put up here I’ve mostly gathered from the articles of well-known media companies, such as BBC or Reuters, or from Eurostat, the EU statistics agency. If you doubt any of my data, you can simply use Google to check them out.

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