Ghair Muqallideen Victimized by Hanafi Bigots for saying Aamin Aloud

Discussion in 'Islamic Law' started by 'Ataullah, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. 'Ataullah

    'Ataullah New Member

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    This is from a book on Ijtihaad and Taqleed (Ijtihaad wa Taqleed ka aakhri faisla=Final Decision on Ijtihaad and Taqleed) by Ashraf Ali Thanvi. It is a compilation of his ifaadaat on this topic extracted from many of his works or works on him. Keep in mind that despite his shortcomings, thanvi was one of the most open minded among the hanafis of indo-pak.

    The scans mention three incidents regarding the aamin bil jahr practiced by ghair muqallideen. First two with the title "Aamin bil Jahr of Ghair Muqallideen":

    1) In a jama'ah of muqallideen i.e hanafis, an Aeh said aamin bil jahr. A situation was created and it reached to police and the case was prolonged.

    Thanvi said that although fighting (on such issues) is zulm but through experince it has been observed that outcome depends on the intention. If the AeH would have said aamin aloud with ikhlaas and the intention of 'amal bis sunnah, such a fasaad would not have occured.

    Later a 'wise hindu' (thanvi actually said this) police officer blammed AeH for this fasaad and wrote a report against them. AeH protested against it and said that Aamin is said aloud also in makkah. Hindu officer said there it is for the remembrance of Allah, here it is for fasad.

    Thanvi's brother went to Qunooj and listened to the aamin of ghair muqallideen. He said aamin should be with khushu' but AeH's aamin looks to be a fight.

    2) Shaikh Muhammad was leading a friday jama'ah. An AeH said aamin aloud. Again there was a situation. Some (hanafis) said get him (AeH) out and some said beat him. Muhammad silenced all and asked the aeh if the (hanafi) prayer without aamin bil jahr is valid or not. AeH replied that its valid. Muhammad said why did you worried a big crowd then. We also do not consider it is a matter to be reported (to police).

    The third incident is titled "Aamin bil Jahr wa bis Sirr wa bish Sharr !"

    3) Such a case (on aamin bil jahr) was reported to an English (christian) officer. He investigated the case and in the end said that aamin is of three kinds. One of the aamins is aamin bil jahr. It is madhhab of one of the sects of islaam and there are ahadith that prove it. the other is aamin bis sirr it is also a madhhab proven by ahadith. the thrid is aamin bish sharr ! practised by the people these days (AeH).
     
  2. 'Ataullah

    'Ataullah New Member

    The source (printed in dec 2004) of this hanafi bigotry is not an AeH work. It does not mention an AeH attempt to convert any hanafi. It is amazing how shamelessly hanafis blamed AeH and their intention behind aamin bil jahr and quote hindus and christians in their support.
     
  3. Salamat

    Salamat <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    sigh...people fighting over the silliest of things...
    amin bil jahr, raf ul yadain, qabd alyadain, mash ala jawrab etc seem more important to the hashawis on both sides than actual transgressions occurring everywhere we look in our society.

    'Ataullah, don't you feel just a littlle embarrased when you bring up these small fiqhi disagreements to people's attention and make it your life goal? I can't even say the word raf' alydeen among people without feeling awkward, it's such a lowbrow thing to argue over.
     
  4. 'Ataullah

    'Ataullah New Member

    Please correct yourself. I have'nt brought small fiqhi differences to people's attention in this thread. I have exposed ta'assub, zulm and extremism of one of the many groups of muslims. This is very common here.
    I don't feel awkward when i discuss small fiqhi differences all the time but sometimes i do. Main thing is i don't base my love and hatred on such issues neither does my co-operation based on these.
     
  5. Abu Sayyid

    Abu Sayyid Qutbist

    These are obviously extreme Hanafis, it's also history so there isn't much need to bring it up. We should try to avoid fitnah, when I pray in a deobandi masjid, I don't say aameen very loud in order not to cause fitnah. But alhamdulillah I think many people have matured, even though the masjid I pray in is 100% deobandi, I've never had a comment on me doing rafulyadayn, me keeping my finger extending throughout the sitting position, or me doing the tasleem after the imam has finished both of his etc.
     
  6. Abul Hasan

    Abul Hasan Aim High.

    I don't see what the problem is here...Maulana Thanvi is basically saying that although there's nothing wrong with saying Amin loud, the ahl-e-hadith shouldn't do it when praying in hanafi masajid because of the ignorance of the laypeople and I agree with him. When I go to Pakistan and pray in a masjid where I know I will have to probably engage in a debate to defend rafa' al-yadain or amin bil-jahr etc., I tend not to do either (in fact, I just pray according to the way of the ahnaf).
     
  7. Firebrand Mullah

    Firebrand Mullah Hanfist Salfist Humblist

    In Afghanistan 18 people were killed inside a Masjid in Takhar province for raf al yadayn and my friends saw people who's index finger was missing because they would raise their finger or move it during tashahud.

    If you are ghair Muqallid, don't go Afghanistan. You will get killed or mutilated for doing non-Hanafi stuff.
     
  8. Abu Treika

    Abu Treika Magoo

    Some AEH did a talk on why 20 Rakat taraweeh is bida.

    Another one said that hands below the navel is bida

    Another one said tasbee is Bida

    The list can go on, finding faults in these contemporary jamaats is not difficult, be at AEH or Deoband/Ahaaf.
     
    The.Joshua.Redux likes this.
  9. Firebrand Mullah

    Firebrand Mullah Hanfist Salfist Humblist

    I did not know much about "Ele Edees" of Pakistan and Afghanistan. But what I have seen in the past 2 years is that they are exactly the same as their Deobandi counterparts. They have the exact same mentality and the exact same extremism and ta'asub.
     
  10. Abdul Malik

    Abdul Malik New Member

    May Allah guide us away from all these jamaats , for none of them are absolutely on the truth .
     
  11. repentingslave

    repentingslave New Member

    I think this is very common across subcontinent here the AeH say don't go to other hanafi masjid as you'll develop the habit of putting hands under navel and some deobandi imam would say don't do rafay al dayn as jews used to do it and don't move your finger.

    Last ramadan a youth asked the AeH imam leading taraweeh why you pray 8 rakah and why they pray 20 in Makkah. So he replied we have the right hadeeth and if they pray 20 doesn't mean the whole world should pray and its right.
     
  12. Abdul Malik

    Abdul Malik New Member

    I really feel bad for the layman who has absolutely no idea whats going on , who is stuck in the middle of their bickering..
    Thankfully here where I live, people(laymans) have a general understanding of ikhtilaf, and how we can't disunite..
    Even topics that might stir up differences are not even discussed unless they are absolutely private from the Jummah muslims, and the likes of.

    And the dishonest/crazy thing I see when it comes to Deoband/AEH conflict is that they are discussing things which have not been settled for 1200 years. Should you not take that as a sign , that it's not going to be settled until qiyyamat? They really need to learn how to deal with each others differences, and accept them.

    Imam shafi'i said "I believe I am right, with the possibility that I am wrong. And I believe you are wrong, with the possibility that you may be right."
    I really think this is a good way of thinking, especially when it comes to issues like these where huge big name respected Ulama have differed and still are differing.. And the saddest part is they charge nifaaq and worst of all at times charge takfeer on the other.
    One for not following a madhab and leaving the Ijma of the earlier century... The other for following Abu Hanifa(rah) and not the prophet(saws)
    Both of which are false.
     
    'Ataullah likes this.
  13. 'Ataullah

    'Ataullah New Member

    Don't be over simplistic brothers. Its not past history. Even the titles, that are themselves pure zulm, were given to these events way after thanvi. I did'nt want to give personal experiences thats why i quoted from their works.

    I don't know why its not problematic. AeH were harassed and rebuked by 'awaam following ahnaaf for amin bil jahr. Their scholars blamed Aeh and their intentions for the fitnah as if they know whats in the hearts. then they quote kuffar in their own favour. Murder of justice.
     
  14. Abu Sayyid

    Abu Sayyid Qutbist

    I know of AeH masajid in Pakistan where you'd get slapped for not doing rafulyadayn! It works both ways. But I've talked to deobandi students of knowledge here and they obviously have big issues with AeH, but I don't think the kind of experiences that you quoted would happen today in Pakistan, Allah Knows best.
     
  15. Firebrand Mullah

    Firebrand Mullah Hanfist Salfist Humblist


    In Peshawar they physically attacked local "ele edees" dudes for amin bil jar. It happened recently.

    I think the ones in Peshawar are very extreme. The stuff I hear is just horrifying.
     
  16. Rasmalai

    Rasmalai Well-Known Member

    Subcontinent Muslims: melodramatic opera performers while the world around them ​burns.
     
    Firebrand Mullah likes this.
  17. Firebrand Mullah

    Firebrand Mullah Hanfist Salfist Humblist


    NOT TRUE! Here's the proof why you are absolutely wrong



    <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/r5qZFmgy4Vc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  18. Rasmalai

    Rasmalai Well-Known Member

    -sigh-

    OK, you may omit 'subcontinent' from my post.
     
  19. Tuwaylib

    Tuwaylib Anti-Defeatist

    funniest thing is that 'ghayr muqallideen' are indeed muqalids.
     
    leo likes this.
  20. Firebrand Mullah

    Firebrand Mullah Hanfist Salfist Humblist


    I thought it was a secret. You were not supposed to tell everyone.
     

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