help needed

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Die for Allah, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    asalamualaykum.</p>



    i need help in understanding the correct aqeeda i read this article and its left me slightly confused.</p>



    http://www.al-morrin.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16</p>





    i would appreciate it very much if some brothers or sisters for that matter could explain to me(or refute) point by point the objections of the author to the statements of the salafi scholars.</p>



    i would paticularly like to know about bin baz's statement of Allah[swt]having limits which are known only to Allah[swt]</p>



    jazakAllah and may Allah[swt]reward you for helping a brother out.</p>
     
  2. TT

    TT New Member

  3. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8">salam Waziri</font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8"></font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8">I read the link page posted by you. I am aware of Sheikh Bin Bazz making statements on 'Allah's limits' and 'parts'.</font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8"></font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8">However, the post propagates Ashari aqeedhah, to say the least, whilst maintaining the loyalty to 'Aqeedah At-Tahawiya'. This is contradictory as Aqeedah At-Tahawiya is adopted as one of the aqeedhah references of Ahlus Sunnah. </font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8"></font></p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #c8e0d8">Anyway, may be reading the link by 'terrorthreat' would clarify some of your enquiries regarding the Ashari aqeedah. </font></p>
     
  4. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    asalamualaykum

    jazakAllah khair brothers for replying.</p>



    the links were helpfull to a certain extent but i think there is a differance in some of the accusations,for eg bilal philips had been accused of anthrapamorphism for saying Allah[swt]has a form not for affirming certain sifat.now i read a hadith somewhere in which the prophet[saw]used the word form but im not sure if it was authentic or not so i would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on that for me.</p>



    wasalam</p>



    ps here are the hadith i read in which the term form has been mentioned  &quot;Allah created Adam on His Form (soorah)&quot; and another hadith: &quot;I saw (in a dream) my Lord in His best Form (soorah).&quot;
    </p>

    are they authentic?and if so is it ok to use the term form(soorah)to describe Allah[swt]obviously a form like no other and one  that befits the majesty of Allah[swt].</p>



    jazakAllah khair </p>
     
  5. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

  6. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    asalamualaykum.</p>



    jazakAllah khair brother logic for your reply the link was very helpfull.</p>

    so it seems to accuse bilal philips of likening Allah[swt]to the creation for using the term form is an unfounded allegation.</p>



    wasalam </p>





    (and yes brother logic its me from the islam channel forum.)</p>
     
  7. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    asalamualaykum.</p>



    i would appreciate it if some one could contribute further and elaborate on what has allready been said,</p>



    jazakAllah</p>



    im still not 100% clear as to bin baz's satatement of Allah[swt]having limits which are known only to himself,the link provided by brother terror threat explained hadd as being used to describe Allah[swt]being distinct from the creation.</p>



    would appreciate if someone could explain further in simple terms.</p>



    barakAllah</p>





    wasalam</p>
     
  8. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

    Waszirey - On Sk Bin Bazz

    Salam brother,</p>



    Regarding the statement of Sk Bin Bazz, the following is the link to a lecture by brother of ours Ibn Umar (who has researched on the 'Salafi' movement). </p>

    <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #6699ff">Please listen to the part from segment 20 mins to 32 mins</font>, where you will find the reference to what you are asking for. I myself need further clarification on the issue. But, this is for your information only:</p>



     http://www.sendspace.com/file/a6ydxr</p>
     
  9. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    could someone please transcribe the relevant part of the audio and post it here?

    wasalam
     
  10. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    Asalamualaykum

    jazakAllah khair brother logic i listened to the talk and mashaAllah it was very informative.</p>



    This is a very deep subject,i mean when the brother explained the hadith about Adam[as]being created in his form ie Adam's form not Allah's[swt],and the explanation to the hadith on the QnA site states that the word &quot;his&quot; is refering to Allah's form which according to the brother giving the lecture is a wrong understanding of the hadith.so i still dont know weather to describe Allah[swt]as having a form is allowed or not.weather form is a sifat of Allah[swt]or not.</p>



    Also it seems some of the accusations that are made against some of the salafi scholars of anthrapamorphism are legitamate.</p>

    i forget the name of the salafi who in one of his books claims Allah[swt]decends and then sits on a chair and then accends and sits on a chair may Allah[swt]protect us from such deviant understandings aaaammeeeeeen.</p>



    Also according to this brother, bin baz has no basis for saying that Allah[swt]has limits that are known only to him[swt].</p>



    yes brother logic further research and clarification is definatley needed.</p>



    could you please provide a bit more info about bro ibn umar is he based in the uk and are more of his lectures available?he didnt mince his words when he described the salafi movement as being the modern day khawaridge did he?</p>



    He talked alot about orthodox muslims but i just wish he had elaborated more and explained which scholars are to be trusted and refered to in such matters.Its like a minefield out there when trying to research for the correct understanding and creed.</p>



    any way jazakAllahkhair once again bro.</p>





    wasalam</p>
     
  11. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    CONFUSED

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4">Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him. </font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4"></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4">Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh. </font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4"></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4">These two hadeeth indicate that the pronoun in the phrase “in His image” refers to Allaah, may He be glorified. </font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4"></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4"></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="DIRECTION: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><font size="4">so what are we to understand the brother on lecture said it  &quot;his image/form&quot; refers to adsam[as]in the other hadeeth yet these ahadeeth do seem to indicate that it is refering to Allah[swt]</font></p>
     
  12. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

    Waziry - Ibn Bazz

    Salam brother</p>



    This matter in question (Adam's image) is making me concerned. I know respected brother Abu Zabair would like someone to transcribe the relevant section of the lecture. I wonder if you could do that please?</p>



    About the lecturer Ibn Umar - the speech was given at Finsbury Park Masjid a few months ago before it was taken over (with the UK help) by the Ikhwanul Muslimeen of UK (the peacelovers and proponent of democracy and power sharing).</p>



    The brother was sometimes seen acting as an assistant to imprisoned brother Abu Hamza. Ibn Umar resides in East Midlands (Nottingham I believe). I have got the first part of the lecture on the deviated sects, which one may find interesting:</p>



    http://www.sendspace.com/file/lcjdyd

    </p>
     
  13. TT

    TT New Member

    I dont know who this guy is but his accusations are the same as the asharis and distortion of what they say about Ahlus Sunnah:

    Regarding the issue of Allah's descent it was covered in the previous links I sent: </p>



    http://www.as-sahwah.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=743&amp;pageID=369</p>



    The principle is that we affirm the Names and Attributes of Allah without asking how, without making tawil and thus giving them a meaning Allah has not, and without likening to the creation. The Asharis say this equals likening to the creation because in there own sick minds everytime Allah's Hand or any other attribute is mentioned they automatically liken it to the creation and thus accuse people of bringing Allah down to the level of creation. The salaf us saliheen accepted Allah's Names and Attributes at there face value without likening to the creation. More info can be found here:</p>



    http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?category=27</p>



    As for there accusation of the Muwahidoon as Khawarij is completely ridicilous. The salafi's do not make takfir of people just because of major sins or even commiting minor kufr or shirk. It is major shirk or kufr in which takfeer can be performed AFTER the precautions to takfir have been lifted.  </p>



    http://salafiyyah-jadeedah.tripod.com/Principle_Takfeer/Takfir_of_Individual.htm</p>



    http://salafiyyah-jadeedah.tripod.com/Principle_Takfeer/Conditions_For_Takfir.htm</p>





    It was actually Muhammad Ali Pasha who was contragulated by the british for killing the Muwahidoon. The problem is that the sufis and asharis defend a lot of the deviation of the Uthmaani's and this is why they hate the pure monothiests who they label as 'wahhabis'. For more information on shirk of the Uthmaani state see here:</p>



    http://www.as-sahwah.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=721</p>



    As for the specific quotes that the speaker mentioned that he says are in the books maybe someone else who has them can shed light on what it really says or at least the context of it.</p>



    I remember once some ashari on a forum told me that in Aqidah Wasitiyah by Ibn Taymiyyah said that 'Allah has a real hand' and the ashari was implying that he said a Hand like our hand. When you look at the english translation done by dar us salam you see a few chapters earlier that Ibn Taymiyyah outright rejects any likening to Allah's creation and considers it kufr. However, they took a statement from the later part of the book which must be looked at in the light of what was said before!</p>



    So these deceptive tactics are nothing new.</p>
     
  14. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

    terrorthreat - reply

    Salam and jazakAllah for your reply.</p>



    This is to clarify that I do not subscribe to Ashari aqeedah, nor do I have any love for those who commit shrik.</p>



    If anyone would describe Allah without having any explicit texts from the Quran and Sunnah would be doing wrong. So, describing Allah with having 'earlobes', for example is wrong - regardless of who does it. Whether Sheikh Bin Bazz really made such statement - I do not bear witteness to that. </p>



    As for the pronoun on the hadiths of Adam's image - this is a matter for which I need clarification.</p>



    On the issue of the Muhammad Pasha being congratulated by the kuffar - I do not hold a concrete view on that. I, however, would like to post a reply in the thread on 'Uthmani state', when I have time inshaAllah.</p>
     
  15. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    salam

    yes bro logic i agree with what your saying,while the links provided by bro terror threat are helpfull they do not adress certain issues at hand. </p>



    The statement of bin baz still needs to be adressed and i urge anyone who can provide clarification to please do so jazakAllah.</p>



    Also bilal philips saying Allah[swt]has a form needs to be explained aswell.</p>



    wasalam.</p>
     
  16. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

  17. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    salam

    c'mon bro's i need clarification im losing sleep thinking about this hey abu Zubair you seem like a knowledgable brother please explain may Allah[swt]reward you.</p>
     

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