How do Ashari's Justify this?

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Abdul Malik, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. Abdul Malik

    Abdul Malik New Member

    Assalamu alaykom wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

    As we all know the ashari's are of different types, and their "Salaf" Abul hasan al ashari/Bayhaqi/baqalani ETC all affirmed 2 Hands , Face, Allah being Fee samaa (Above the heavens) / Istawa (Rose-over the throne)
    And the later ashari's (The ones we face today) have a different aqeedah, of affirming the 7 seven sifat and making ta'weel/tafweedh of others and what have you.

    I must admit im not knowledgeable at all, and this scenarios keeps repeating itself inside me throughout the day. And I would really like to understand from brothers who have encountered them and their arguments.

    I want to know how is it that the ashari's affirm Allah is living / Rahmat / Speech / Power ETC
    But they don't affirm face / 2 hands / istawa / Allah Literally being above us/ descending ETC.

    Is their argument 1) WE have Hands, so therefore Allah can not by any means have 2 hands?
    and 2) Do they say by affirming 2 hands entails that Allah must have a physical / solid body like us?

    For the first one, Is not Allah living? And we Living? And Does not Allah have Ilm? and we too have Ilm?
    Is this not, according to their standards shirk and tashbeeh? Because we have these attributes ourselves, (of course we say our ilm is not like nor similar to the ilmullah, or our living is not like His ta'ala)

    and for the second ... How does a face or 2 hands make Allah limited? Because our only understanding of these attributes are physical and limited? What about our understanding of living, we don't know of anything living or having rahmat other then that of a body or a shape of some sort, some physical limits.

    So therefore they would have to say "Living but not like our living" "Allah has ilm, but unlike our ilm"
    So can we not say "Hands but not anything at all similar to our hands"

    Im sure they negate Allah being Above the heavens (Even though there is TONS of evidence for this) and their salaf (bayhaqi/baqalani) affirmed this...
    Can we not say Allah is above, in a way that is unlike the creations above... Not being encompassed by anything.

    Sorry Im sort of all over the place here... They make things very confusing
  2. Logic lover

    Logic lover Well-Known Member

    I don't think that there are many defenders of Ashari creed here. May be it is worth posting in an Ashari forum - Sunni Fourms perhaps?
  3. levelz77

    levelz77 New Member

    Well either you can watch these videos talking about there position and if you want to refute there points go ahead.. The problem you will have with asharis mainly is refuting that ayah they use as a premise which is "There is nothing like Allah"




    The last video he states "if those descriptions diddnt come in the quran and sunnah we would have negated them" I would say leave the asharis alone I don't think you can debate with them if they can openly say a statement like that?
  4. Abdul Malik

    Abdul Malik New Member

    I just cant get a clear cut answer for how one can affirm something (Which we on the human level have, "Living/Existing/Speech/Forgiveness/Power/Knowledge" )

    How can Allah have those attributes and we have them ourselves? And if Allah's ilm is unlike ours, why can't his other sifat also be different?
  5. moubeen

    moubeen Active Member

    I think I remember reading a quote from Taj as-subki (the 'ashari fanatic) trying to justify that position somewhere. It may have been on one of the blogs... I think there may have been an article on Sunnipress with a reply and counter argument to as-Subki - not sure.
  6. moubeen

    moubeen Active Member

    OK, did a quick google search with "subki attributes life"

    this came up:

    Refutation of as-Subki | Saheefah
    if you read it on the original website link the formatting might be clearer. Not sure who the author of the article was, but I've seen that article on several blogs before.

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