Ibn Kathir, Ibn Qudamah, Nawawi, Qurtubi, Shawkani, Bayhaqi, Ibn Hajr and others on TAWASSUL!!

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Saiful Rahman Al Afghany, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    Ayat al-Sharif:

    وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا
    "{If they, when they were unjust to themselves, had come to you and begged Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them, indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful}". (Surah Nisa, verse 64).


    Ibn Kathir says in his Tafsir of this Ayah:

    وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو منصور الصباغ في كتابه الشامل الحكاية المشهورة عن العتبي قال : كنت جالسا عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول " ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما " وقد جئتك مستغفرا لذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول : يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم ثم انصرف الأعرابي فغلبتني عيني فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم في النوم فقال : يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره أن الله قد غفر له " .
    (Source: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/D...&l=arb&nSora=4&nAya=64&taf=KATHEER&tashkeel=1
    Utbee narrated that once he was sitting beside the Prophet’s grave when a bedouin came and he said: "Peace be on you, O Allah’s Messenger. I have heard that Allaah says: "If they, when they were unjust to themselves, had come to you" ... {Surah Nisa, verse 64} So I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins and I make you as my intermediary before my Lord and I have come to you for this purpose". Then he recited these lines of poetry: "O, the most exalted among the buried people who improved the worth of the plains and the hillocks! May I sacrifice my life for this grave which is made radiant by you, (the Prophet,) the one who is (an embodiment) of mercy and forgiveness". Then the bedouin went away and I fell asleep. In my dream I saw the Prophet. He said to me: "O Utbee, the bedouin is right, go and give him the good news that Allaah has forgiven his sins".


    al-Thalabi says in his tafsir of the same Ayah:

    والثعــالــبي (١/٣٨٦)
    " وعن العتبى قال كنت جالسا عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله تعالى يقول ولو إنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما وقد جئتك مستعفيا من ذنوبي مستغفرا إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول
    يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه ... فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
    نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه ... فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
    قال ثم انصرف فحملتني عيناي فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في النوم فقال لي يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره أن الله تعالى قد غفر له انتهى من حلية النووي وسنن الصالحين للباجي وفيه مستغفرا من ذنوبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي​


    Tafsir al-Nasfi on the same Ayah:

    والنسفي (١/٢٣٠،٢٣١)
    " وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو نصر بن الصباغ في كتابه الشامل الحكاية المشهورة عن العتبى قال : كنت جالسا عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول { ولو إنهم إذ
    ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما } وقد جئتك مستغفرا لذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول :
    ( يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه ... فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم )
    ( نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه ... فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم )
    ثم انصرف الأعرابي فغلبتني عيني فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في النوم فقال يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره أن الله قد غفر له " ​



    an-Nawawi mentions Utbee's narration in his "al-Adhkaar":

    وقد روى الإمام النووي في كتابه (( الأذكار )) عن العتبي ، وهو شيخ البخاري ، أن العتبي قال : (( كنت مرة بجوار قبر النبي إذ أقبل اعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله إني سمعت قول الله تعالى (ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما ) وإني اتيتك يا رسول الله مستغفرا ذنبي مستشفعا بك الى ربي ، ثم أنشد يقول : يا خير من دفنت في الترب اعظمه فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم نفسي الفداء لقبر انت ساكنه فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم ثم انصرف الأعرابي ، يقول العتبي : فأخذتني اغفاءة فأتاني رسول الله في الرؤيا يقول (( يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي وقل له لقد غفر الله لك )) .​


    Ibn Qudamah al-Hanbali mentions the same incident in his "al-Mughni (3/589)":

    ابن قدامة المقدسي الحنبلي قد ذكر في (المغني 3/ 589) وكذا في (الشرح الكبير 3/494) حديث العتبي قائلاً: ويروى عن العتبي قال: كنت جالساً عند قبر النبي(ص) فجاء أعرابي فقال: السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول (وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَحِيماً) (النساء:64), وقد جئتك مستغفراً من ذنبي مستشفعاً بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول:
    يا خير من دفنت في الترب أعظمه *** فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
    نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه *** فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
    ثم أنصرف الأعرابي فحملتني عيني فرأيت النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) فقال يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره أن الله قد غفر له


    as-Suyuti in "Dur al-Manthur":

    والسيوطي في الدر المنثور (١/٥٧٠-٢٣)
    " وأخرج البيهقي عن أبي حرب الهلالي قال : حج أعرابي إلى باب مسجد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أناخ راحلته فعقلها ثم دخل المسجد حتى أتى القبر ووقف بحذاء وجه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : بأبي أنت وأمي يا رسول الله جئتك مثقلا بالذنوب والخطايا مستشفعا بك على ربك لأنه قال في محكم تنزيله ولو إنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما​



    al-Qurtubi says in the tafsir of the same Ayah:

    روى أبو صادق عن علي قال : قدم علينا أعرابي بعدما دفنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بثلاثة أيام , فرمى بنفسه على قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وحثا على رأسه من ترابه ; فقال : قلت يا رسول الله فسمعنا قولك , ووعيت عن الله فوعينا عنك , وكان فيما أنزل الله عليك " ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم " الآية , وقد ظلمت نفسي وجئتك تستغفر لي . فنودي من القبر إنه قد غفر لك . (Source: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/D...&l=arb&nSora=4&nAya=64&taf=KORTOBY&tashkeel=1
    "Its related from Abu Saadeq that Ali Ibn Abi Talib (radiallaahu anhu) said: "A villager came to see us three days after the burial of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم). He placed himself near the Prophet’s grave, sprinkled its earth over his body and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم), you said and we have heard it from you. You received commands from Allaah and we received commands from you, and one of these divine commands was "wa law annahum idh zalamu anfusahum". ((Qur'an, Surah Nissa (4), verse 64)) It is true that I have wronged myself, therefore, you should pray for my forgiveness". In response to the villager’s act of imploring he was called out from the grave: "There is no doubt that you have been forgiven".


    And others than them ...


    I say: Ask yourselves these questions:

    Does this narration promote kufr and shirk? YES or NO?

    Was the Shaf'eee scholar Ibn Kathir ignorant about Iman and Kufr? And the Maliki scholar al-Qurtuby too? Did Ibn Qudamah al-Hanbali not know tawheed? He mentioned this narration in his famous "al-Mughni" - which is the reference point for the hanabilah. Think about it: If this narration promotes shirk, then why did Imam an-Nawawi narrate it in his world-famous "al-Adhkar"? According to many, his word is final in the Shafe'ee madhab. Was he not on tawheed?

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Tafsir Al-Qurtuby are unanimously accepted by Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah. I don't know why the english translators of Tafsir Ibn Kathir did NOT translate this narration. If its promoting kufr and shirk: Why then did our scholars not warn us against this "KUFR" in Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Tafsir al-Qurtuby?

    Instead - they adviced us to start with Tafsir Ibn Kathir!

    Think about it: Were all our mujadideen in the past 600+ years ignorant about tawheed when they remained silent about this "shirki narration" in Tafsir Ibn Kathir?
     
  2. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    Asking the Prophet at his GRAVE to make Dua' on our behalf

    Ibn Kathir says in his "al Bidaya wal Nihaya" (7/106):

    وقال الحافظ أبو بكر البيهقي: أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم.
    فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا.
    فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس.
    فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح

    (Source: http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=251&CID=111
    "It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar's treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the successorship of `Umar, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished," after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!" The man went and told `Umar. The latter said: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!"


    The same incident was also narrated by:


    Ibn Hajar al-Asaqalani in "Fath al Bari" (2/495):

    وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.
    وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،
    وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق​



    al-Bayhaqi in his "Dala'il al-Nubuwwa" (7/47):

    2974 أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة ، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا : أخبرنا أبو عمرو بن مطر ، أخبرنا أبو بكر بن علي الذهلي ، أخبرنا يحيى ، أخبرنا أبو معاوية ، عن الأعمش ، عن أبي صالح ، عن مالك قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمان عمر بن الخطاب ؛ فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا رسول الله , استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا ؛ فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام ؛ فقال ائت عمر فأقرئه السلام ، وأخبره أنكم مسقون . وقل له : عليك الكيس الكيس . فأتى الرجل عمر ، فأخبره ، فبكى عمر ثم قال : يا رب ما آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه *​


    Ibn Abi Shayba in "Musannaf" (12/31-32):

    حدثنا أبو معاوية عن الأعمش عن أبي صالح عن مالك الدار ، قال : وكان خازن عمر على الطعام ، قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر ، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا رسول الله ، استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا ، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له : ائت عمر فأقرئه السلام ، وأخبره أنكم مستقيمون وقل له : عليك الكيس ، عليك الكيس ، فأتى عمر فأخبره فبكى عمر ثم قال : يا رب لا آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه (Source: http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp?DocID=4&MaksamID=4390&ParagraphID=4721&Sharh=0


    al-Hafiz Khalili in "al-Irshad fi Ma'rifa Ulama al-Hadith" (1/313-314):

    مالك الدار مولى عمر بن الخطاب الرعاء عنه : تابعي , قديم , متفق عليه , أثنى عليه التابعون , وليس بكثير الرواية , روى عن أبي بكر الصديق , وعمر , وقد انتسب ولده إلى جبلان ناحية . حدثني محمد بن أحمد بن عبدوس المزكي أبو بكر النيسابوري , حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد بن الحسن الشرقي , حدثنا محمد بن عبد الوهاب قال : قلت لعلي بن عثام العامري الكوفي : لم سمي مالك الدار ؟ فقال : الداري المتطيب . حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن الفتح , حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد البغوي , حدثنا أبو خيثمة , حدثنا محمد بن خازم الضرير , حدثنا الأعمش , عن أبي صالح , عن مالك الدار ، قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمان عمر بن الخطاب , فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا نبي الله , استسق الله لأمتك فرأى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال : " ائت عمر , فأقرئه السلام , وقل له : إنكم مسقون , فعليك بالكيس الكيس " . قال : فبكى عمر , وقال : يا رب , ما آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه يقال : إن أبا صالح سمع مالك الدار هذا الحديث , والباقون أرسلوه​


    And others than them - including al-Imam Bukhari in his famous "Tarikh al-Kabir" ...

    Ibn Kathir said: {وهذا إسناد صحيح}
    Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani said: {بإسناد صحيح}
     
  3. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    Tawassul at the GRAVE of the Prophet

    al-Qadhi Iyaadh in his "ash-Shifa'a" (2:92/93):

    ذكره القاضي عياض في الشفا (2:92/93):
    وقد قال الإمام مالك للخليفة المنصور لما حج وزار قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وسأل مالكا قائلا :" يا أبا عبد الله أستقبل القبلة وأدعو أم أستقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟ قال: ولم تصرف وجهك عنه وهو وسيلتك ووسيلة أبيك ءادم عليه السلام إلى الله تعالى؟ بل استقبله واستشفع به فيشفعه الله ".
    (نقله الامام السبكي (م256هـ) في شفاء السقام، ص154.
    نقله الامام القسطلاني (م923هـ) في المواهب باب زيارة قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم .
    نقله الامام السمهودي (م911هـ) في وفاء الوفاء، ص1326هـ
    نقله الامام الزرقاني (م1122هـ) في شرح المواهب، ج8، ص352 وقال رواه القاضي باسناد صحيح رجاله ثقات .)
    "The Abbasid caliph' Mansur al-Dawaniqi' once asked Imam Malik ibn Anas whether he should turn towards the grave of the Prophet (s) or face the Qiblah for supplication? Malik answered him: "Why do you want to turn away from the Prophet (s) when he (Prophet Muhammad (s)) is the wasilah (means) for you and for your father Adam' towards Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Turn to him (the Prophet) and seek his intercession (shafa'at)".



    Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi says in "Fath al-Qadeer" (2/337) on visiting the prophet's grave:

    3- الإمام كمال الدين بن الهمام الحنفي رضى الله عنه ( ت:861هـ ) فتح القدير، ج2، ص332، كتاب الحج، باب زيارة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم:
    ويسأل الله حاجته متوسلا إلى الله بحضرة نبيه ثم قال يسأل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم الشفاعة فيقول يا رسول الله أسألك الشفاعة يا رسول الله أتوسل بك إلى الله.

    "Then let him ask Allah for his need, using Allah's Prophet as his means to Allah; (then he said): Let him ask the Prophet for his intercession and say: "O Messenger of Allah, I am asking for your intercession; O Messenger of Allah, I am using you as my means to Allah".


    al-Ghazali says in "Ahya al-Uloom" (Page 505):
    الإمام الغزالي الشافعي رضى الله عنه (م505هـ
    قال في احياء العلوم، باب زيارة المدينة و آدابها، ج1، ص360 .
    يقول الزائر،
    اللهم قصدنا نبيك مستشفعين به إليك في ذنوبنا .
    وقال في آخره ونسألك بمنزلته عندك وحقه إليك​


    ash-Shawkani in "Tuhfatul Dhakireen" (10/34):

    قال الشوكاني في تحفة الذاكرين:
    “وفي الحديث دليل على جواز التوسل برسول الله صلى اله عليه وسلم إلى الله عز وجل
    مع اعتقاد أن الفاعل هو الله سبحانه وتعالى، وأنه المعطي والمانع ما شاء
    .(10/ كان وما لم يشأ لم يكن” (تحفة الأحوذي 34

    And in this hadith is proof for the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet to Allah, with the conviction that the actual doer is Allah, and that He is the Giver and the Withholder. What He wills is, and what He does not will, will never be.”


    an-Nawawi says in "Majmu" (8/274):

    قال الإمام النووي في المجموع (ج8/274) كتاب صفة الحج، باب زيارة قبر الرسول صلى اللّه عليه وسلم: "ثم يرجع إلى موقفه الأول قُبالة وجه رسول اللّه صلى اللّه عليه وسلّم (((ويتوسل به))) في حق نفسه ويستشفع به إلى ربه".​



    al-Mardawi in "Salatal Istisqaa" (2/456):

    الإنصاف للمرداوي (ت:885 هـ) (ج2/456)في كتاب صلاة الاستسقاء: "ومنها (أي من الفوائد) يجوز التوسل بالرجل الصالح على الصحيح من المذهب، وقيل: يُستحب، قال الإمام أحمد للمروذي: (((يَتَوسل بالنبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم))) في دعائه، وجزم به في المستوعب وغيره".​



    "Fatawa al-Hindiyah" (1/266) of the Ahnaf:

    في كتاب الفتاوى الهندية (ج1/266) كتاب المناسك: باب: خاتمة في زيارة قبر النبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، بعد أن ذكر كيفية وءاداب زيارة قبر الرسول صلى اللّه عليه وسلم، ذكر الأدعية التي يقولها الزائر فقال: "ثم يقف (أي الزائر) عند رأسه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم كالأوّل ويقول: اللهم إنك قلت وقولك الحق: "وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ .." الآية، وقد جئناك سامعين قولك طائعين أمرك، (((مستشفعين بنبيك إليك))).​

    * Note: From what I heard: "Fatawa al-Hindiyah" is a very old fiqhi fatwa collection by more than 500 major Hanafi scholars in the Asian sub-Continent. They did not write a fatwa in this collection, except when they all agreed on it, wa Allaahu A'alam,

    And there are many other famous scholars with similar statements ...

    Again brothers and sisters - ask yourselves the same questions which I mentioned in Post 1 ...

    Wa Allaahu A'alam,
     
  4. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    And remember:

    The dead themselves cannot help you. Asking them to help you = SHIRK AL-AKBAR by Ijma'a

    Another similar thread about the kufr of al-Istighatha from the dead - is coming soon Insha'Allaah :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2009
  5. Pluma

    Pluma <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Nice to see that brother :D

    I rarely heard people saying that tawassuling (real tawassuling) is haraam.
     
  6. Die for Allah

    Die for Allah TIOCFAIDH AR LA

    Asalamualaykum,


    I think maybe this thread should have been added to the tawassul thread rather than starting a new thread.

    Anyway alot of what has been posted has been discussed in detail.


    The narration of Malik al Darr has been dealt with here


    Many of the other statements and narrations have been dealt with aswell please search the forums
     
  7. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    Yes, our Salafi brothers are against most of these issues in general.

    I met brother Abdur Raheem Green and brother Jalal Ibn Saeed and both of them said: "If you go to the grave of the Prophet and ask him TO ASK ALLAAH on your behalf for anything, it is considered idolworship". I confronted Abdur Raheem Green about this and he said: "You want to change my views? I know my deen".

    With all due respect to our dua'at - but I don't think that's the right approach in life.

    Ibn Kathir and other scholars allowed this in their Tafsirs. If this is shirk, then the promoters of shirk are? Also mushrikeen - isn't it? And from my experience, the educated Salafi brothers will not say that this is shirk - the most they will say: "It is haram" or "It is bidah".

    As long as they respect other people's opinion, then there is no problem, but when you accuse someone of shirk - then they have to say something back.

    LOOOL!! @ Real Tawassuling! :D

    Wa Alaykum Salaam wa Rahmatullaah,

    I had seen that thread, but this is beter as a summary of everything. I hope the mods do not delete it - barak Allaahu feekum.

    And as I said, the question is not whether or not Malik al Darr's Hadith is authentic - even though Ibn Kathir & Ibn Hajar declared it to be authentic - I'm more concerned about the fact that so many ulama' quoted this narration in their books with no condemnation? So many fuqaha, such as Ibn Qudamah in their chapter on visiting the grave of the Prophet with 0 condemnation. This doesn't sound right - does it? If its shirk - they would not have mentioned it.

    This is not just a copy-paste thread. I have made scans - IF anyone is interested.

    Wasalaam,
     
  8. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    Also from ash-Shawkani:

    [​IMG]

    He mentions the Ijma' as-Sahaba (consensus of Sahaba) that Tawassul with the Prophet was allowed when the Prophet was alife AND also after his death ...
     
  9. Saiful Rahman Al Afghany

    Saiful Rahman Al Afghany أودعكم بدمعات العيون

    Some pictures I took in the Salafi Masaajid:

    Imam an-Nawawi in his "al-Adhkaar":

    [​IMG]



    Ibn Qudamah in his "Mughni":

    [​IMG]



    al-Qaadhi Iyaad in his "ash-Shifa'a":

    [​IMG]


    Even with my WEAK Arabic, I managed to all find this stuff. Allaahu A'alam how much more there is ...
     
  10. Man I've been thinking about this issue aswell. I'm not really sure what to believe here. Currently these are my views on tawassul:

    a) Bi haqqin nabi- this is a legitimate issue where there's acceptable ikhtilaaf.

    b) Through the Prophet by asking him to make du'aa on your behalf. At the moment I believe this is bid'ah, an opinion held by Ibn Taymiyyah, and in recent times by Ibn 'Uthaymeen and al-Baraak.

    c) Asking the Prophet (saw) to help you- this is clear cut shirk al-akbar.


    The b) type of tawassul seems to be there real contentious issue for me. After reading about what all of these scholars have said over and over again, I feel compelled to take the salafi opinion that all of these scholars were 'mistaken' with a grain of salt. Perhaps this is also an issue of legitimate difference of opinion. Somebody help me out with this one!

    :s
     
  11. Muslim_

    Muslim_ New Member

    "The b) type of tawassul seems to be there real contentious issue for me. After reading about what all of these scholars have said over and over again, I feel compelled to take the salafi opinion that all of these scholars were 'mistaken' with a grain of salt. Perhaps this is also an issue of legitimate difference of opinion. Somebody help me out with this one!"


    The proof is there, just accept it, you don't have to agree with Ibn Taymiyya or Ibn al-Uthaymin. you have plethera of ulema that narrated the narration. how can you still consider it still bida'. No one who narrated it said it's shirk or bida', and how can it be bida' when it was done in the time of the companions. Again if it was bida', it means that these scholars were ignorant of bida' even with their lifetime of seeking knowledge. and it also means that the books that we rely on are filled with bida'.

    Shaykh Albani has notes on the Tafsir ibn kathir, maybe someone can look up what he said, if he said anything.

    Sorry if i sound a bit harsh.

    Ma' Salama
     
  12. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    May I ask a question and not to sound disrespectful, but what makes asking the prophet sallahu alayhi was sallam any different to asking any other dead man?

    See you have brought this quote and it has been delt with already. So you have already brought 'evidence' that isn't actually evidence or sound, and this is done in an issue of Imaan and Kufr. May I ask bro sincerely who has given you this as evidence and have you actually taken these quotes to anyone of ilm and had them explained?

    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=15744&postcount=36





    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=15807&postcount=5
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  13. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    No offense bro, but you assume you have understood what they were saying and you assume that these reports are even authentic. That is a big thing when it is an issue of Imaan and Kufr to take it all at face value. To just dive in to support something that could be shirk is a massive thing. I cant quite believe this thread is taking place tbh.

    No they were not ignorant but it appears you are. How can you be swayed by quotes you have found yourself, and yet two of them don't actually say what you want them to say or even support your view. Past all this how can you even delve into such a huge issue without even doing the most basic reaserch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  14. Muslim_

    Muslim_ New Member

    "That is a big thing when it is an issue of Imaan and Kufr to take it all at face value. To just dive in to support something that could be shirk is a massive thing"

    If these 'Ulema stated the narration, and if it's an issue of kufr and Iman, isn't it necessary and a responsibility that they speak up when they narrate it? Would you put a narration or saying in a book that you might write, which might have kufr and not say anything? Does that make sense. All these ulema didn't have problem with it, that's why they kept silence, if it was bida' or shirk they would have stated it.

    And remember the Prophet (peace be upon him) is the best of creation, and he's alive in his grave, and can hear us when we are in his presence near the grave.
     
  15. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    Since when did Ulema become a form of wahi for us?
     
  16. Muslim_

    Muslim_ New Member

    That's not my point, they're not reciepient of wahi, But they know what is kufr and what is not, and to say that these ulema whom we rely on, have kufr in their writing, is something else. Then these ulema should be stripped of the honarary titles given to them, no more is Hafidh ibn Hajar Amilrul muminin fil hadith, no more is Imam nawawi Muhi yuddin qutubl aqtab, etc.
     
  17. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    Right, so a few cut and paste jobs and now that means they agree with these quotes? Typical tactics of those in misguidance, we bring quotes say 'many before held it how can you go against it?!!' and then you are expected to follow it. No thanks I would rather not, there will be some explanation of these quotes.

    Reading this thread proves it:

    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2879&page=9

    This is like the claim of the Asharis, that everyone has been Ashari and that the salafis are a new invention. They bring quote after quote usually out of context. Please don't try that tactic.
     
  18. Muslim_

    Muslim_ New Member

    If it was kufr, they would have said something, can't you understand that? Your proposition that shirk and kufr is in our books is nonsense.

    Answer this, would you quote that narration in a book that you write, and not say anything about it containing 'kufr'?

    ma' Salama
     
  19. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    Who said they actually did that? Or that it even says what you think it does? You assume I agree with you that it says what you think it does and there wasn't any other discussion around the actual text. Just becauser Saifur Rahman provides some quotes so what?
     
  20. Muslim_

    Muslim_ New Member

    From what i get from the narration is that the A'arabi went to the grave of the prophet (peace be upon him) and asked him to ask Allah ta'ala to forgive him..

    What do you think the narration says?

    The fact is, a living person who walks and eats went to the Prophet (peace be upon him) to his grave and stated what he stated.

    Nothing more nothing less.

    Can you answer my second question that i posted:
    would you quote that narration in a book that you write, and not say anything about it containing 'kufr'?
     

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