Imam Qurtubi in defence of Imam Ibn Abd alBar regarding Allah being above the throne

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Um Abdullah M., Mar 26, 2007.

  1. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

    Assalamu alaykum

    Imam al Qurtubi rahimahu Allah, in his book "al Asna fi sharh Asma' Allah al Husna wa sifatih" (tahqiq Irfan al Asha Hassunah),

    defended the belief of Imam Ibn Abd al Bar al Maliki rahimahu Allah, regarding Allah being above the throne, here is the page in which

    He negates him believing that Allah is a body touching the Throne, being limited and surrounded by the throne, but confirmes that Abu Umar ibn Abd al Bar believing Allah is above things, above the Throne seperate from it, and that Abu al Hasan believes that and other scholars who came before Imam Ibn Abd al Bar rahimahu Allah.
    but he himself (Imam al Qurtubi rahimahu Allah) doesn't have that belief (he does ta'wil to it), but he defends the Imam, saying that there were other scholars before him, some from the Salaf, having that belief, and having that belief does not make one mujasim/hashawi, as long as he doesn't beleive that He is on it like the creation are, touching it, being limited by it.

    here are scanned pages, maybe if someone could translate it ?

    Attached Files:

    braincheck and Abu'l 'Eyse like this.
  2. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    JK for this... where did you buy the book from?
  3. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    you can buy it online from

    sister asmaa did you manage to locate the following quote:

  4. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

    in which chapter is it?
    the book is quite lengthy, if u can tell me in which chapter it would be easier

    here is the download link for the book:
  5. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    i don't know which chapter sis, there is a chapter on istiwah but couldn't find the quote, found others though,
  6. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    I couldn't find it either (although the section on istiwa which is there does the job, anyway)... but that particular quote I couldn't find. I haven't checked thoroughly, anyway.

    It could also be that the manuscript the muhaqqiq relied on was tampered with? Because, Mar'i al-Karmi won't attribute something like this to a scholar without verification.
  7. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    yeah, also as-safarini quoted it as well no?
  8. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    He did, too, but it seems he was simply quoting Mar'i al-Karmi from Aqawil al-Thiqat
  9. Abu Hafsa

    Abu Hafsa New Member

    Man this pdf is over 16mb over 400 pages, the quality of the images is not the best. It seems like they scanned each page, pasted it on word then pdf'ed it. Is it not possible to pdf a crystal clear word document... sorry Im asking much. I doubt the original copy is available from the publishers.
  10. Skillganon

    Skillganon The Serial Repper

    Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters.

    I still don't get all this. I mean I am a newby to the religion in terms of knoweldge.

    Why does this people say Allah is not above the throne above the seven heaven when it is clear in the Quran and hadith?

    It perplexes me, who stole their mind? I find it extremely funny. Can somone humour me?
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2007
  11. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    bro I brought my hardcopy from and if your from U.K. then the dollar is quite weak and it should be worth it. ALLAHU A'lam
    got quite a few 'ash'ari books from there like sharh jawahar (x2) and others, prices can be steep but best to shop now while the dollar is weak
  12. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Aristotle... never heard of him? Where 'ave ya been?
  13. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

    because they use greek logic in their belief in sifat, including attribute of "istawa".
    they say if we believe he is above His throne "literally" then we would saying that he is bound by a "place", in a "direction", has a "body", surrounded by the throne, limited, touching it, ...blah blah blah
    and they attribute all of this to us, that we believe in the stuff they claim "believing Allah is above the Throne" intails.

    which is all nonsense.
    We believe that Allah is above His throne, separate from the creation (including the throne, for it is from the creation), not limited, is greater than the throne, is not surrounded by anything.

    Terms like "direction" and "place" are man made, sects like Ash'aris cannot comprehend it outside of their "greek mind".

    and by the way, Ash'aris do not believe that Allah is in or outside of His creation.

    They don't accept the question "where" in regards to Allah, and say that it is not allowed to ask such a question, because you will be bounding ALlah to a place ..blah blah blah.

    so I guess the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam asked a "forbidden" question, when he asked the slave girl "Where is Allah ?"

    bro, this is what "ilm al kalam" (greek philosphy) did to people's minds, and beliefs.

    that is why great scholars of the past, condmened ilm al kalam and faught it.
  14. Skillganon

    Skillganon The Serial Repper

    So what they are basicly saying is Allah(swt) is nowhere at all?

    Is it correct for me to say that:
    "Somthing that is nowhere at all cannot exist."
  15. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Yes... this is what their own leader, Ibn Kullab said to: That which neither exists above nor below is actually non-existent.
  16. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

  17. ahmedjbh

    ahmedjbh <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    can you explain in what sense Allah is above His throne, do you mean literally as the sky is above me? or do you mean some other meaning?

    As you say literally...
  18. Um Abdullah M.

    Um Abdullah M. Nothing

    Allah is literally above the throne separate from it, He is above all of His creation.

    ok, let me ask you this:
    We believe that before Allah created the creation, there was nothing but Allah, He is the first nothing before Him.
    Then Allah created the creation, so then now there is Allah and the creation, so the question is:
    When Allah created the creation, where did He create it?

    Inside of Him? (Exalted be Allah)
    Outside of Him?
  19. ahmedjbh

    ahmedjbh <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    are you implying there is a place where Allah is not?
  20. ali

    ali البريكي

    of course, He is not everywhere. If that is what your professing, then your no different than a Jahmi

    He is not in you, in anyone, not in the places of filth, not in brothels and bars, and He is not everywhere.

    Ahmad bin Hanbal eradicated this beleif with a mighty H-bomb, servered in the pits of inacceptance.

    thats was goin to be my same response :D

    asalamu alaikum

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