Isnaad between Ibn Taymiyyah and Imam Ahmad(rh)

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by ibnislam, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. ibnislam

    ibnislam Hanbali butchers at work!

    Assalaam u alaykum,

    I don't know how Abuz Zubair's work escaped my notice, but I've already printed out much of his reply to "Apples and Oranges". Brothers, I need help with two questions:


    As much as I love Ibn Taymiyyah(rh)'s work, I've been hard-pressed to provide some kind of connection between the two Imaams. Does anyone know the Isnaad here? Something great is if anyone knows the Isnaad from Shaykh Uthaymeen(rh)

    2) Also, have you ever heard a rumor that Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) supposedly found some books that were written by Hanbali scholars who had deviant aqeedah, and then went on to spread this "deviant" aqeedah to the Ummah, such that there was NO ONE before him who called for taking Allah's Asmaa wa Sifaat in the dhaahiri sense?

    3) I need any clear statement from the Salaaf that the rule is to go with the dhaahir meaning expressions describing Allah. A certain individual has asserted repeatedly that the Salaf either did Tafweed, and if they ever did Ta'weel, it was ALWAYS in the majaazee sense, not the Haqeeqee sense.

    Jazaakumullahu khayran, and my duas for you against the haasideen.

  2. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    From what I know, Ibn Taymiyya has isnad going back to Ibn Taymiyya through at least two of his Sheikhs:

    i) Shams al-Din al-Maqdisi, the author of al-Sharh al-Kabir, and
    ii) his father, ‘Abd al-Haleem Ibn Taymiyya al-Harrani

    Sh Ibn ‘Uthaimin’s isnad most probably goes through his Sheikh Ibn Sa’di.

    One who claims this does not know what he is talking about.

    Just refer to al-‘Uluw by Ibn Qudama, al-Dhahabi, or Ijtima al-Juyush al-Islamiyya by Ibn al-Qayyim.

    The narrations are plenty. Not to mention the works written and compiled by early Ash’ari scholars such as al-Ash’ari himself, al-Baqillani, al-Baghdadi, Ibn Furak and numerous others.

  3. ibnislam

    ibnislam Hanbali butchers at work!

    Jazaakallahu khayran yaa akhee. That's what I thought about Ibn Uthaymeen (rh) too. The problem is when they brag about their Isnaads like this link at (sufi)path :

    This chain is probably a lie, or there is a least ONE person in there who wasn't an scholar of ahl-us-sunnah, but how do laypeople like us answer to this. Isnaad isn't EVERYTHING, because it's the rijaal that count. On other other hand, there's nothing without isnaad either.

    May Allah reward you for whatever assistance you can give.

    Ibn Islam
  4. ibnislam

    ibnislam Hanbali butchers at work!

    Assalaam u alaykum,

    I think I forgot to mention that it is the exact isnaad that i'm looking for, as in Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) from ________ from _________ from ..... from Imam Ahmad(rh).

    Same thing for Abdur Rahman Sa'adee (rh) if you can. I don't know anyone else who might know this.

    When they give Isnad and say "bring your men", I want to do the same, Insha Allah.

    Ibn Islam
  5. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    al-Salamu 'Alaikum wa-Rahmatullah,

    The Isnâd is a very important device in Islam. In fact, it is unique to Islam and its importance can not be overestimated. However, there are some elements in contemporary muslim society who misuse it or play with it. They claim Ijâzât and high chains in order to deceive the ignorants, playing with this important aspect of our religion. They attack innocent people, even scholars who are par excellence thé carriers of asânid and their mutûn (be it an hadith, athar or even book), while they are not entitled to any sanad (support)!

    Take for example the above mentioned 'chain of transmission' of al-Kawthari. I leave the criticism of some 'reporters' or 'links' in the probably concoted chain, not mentioning their Jahâlah and confirmed weakness. Just ask yourself: Is it true that this 'chain' represents an Ijâza for Ifta? I mean: does the 'compiler' of this 'chain' has some evidence that all those people - explicitly - delegated some particular knowledge (in this case fiqh, i.e. jurisprudence) to another in a formal way? Or have they simply 'put up' those names together, just because they may have met or learned among one another? I bet that it is nothing but 'created', i.e. because one link studied once in his life under another 'link' they have put names. I bet that such a Isnâd or Ijâza (certificate) was never present before the 10th century among the men mentioned there! For if there was would the students of Imam Abu Hanifah passed down their knowledge to such people, so few and inferior to many others?!

    As for Ibn Taymiyyah, rahimahullah, he has many chains of transmissions! Many, many.. And believe me not because I simply say so. No. Believe me because it has been documented in many certificates of hearings. And disbelieve the one who states - today - such a thing as stated above! For it is well known that the Ahl al-Hadith are the Ahl al-Isnad. Not the Hanafites, the Malikites or even the Shafi'ites, but just the Ahl al-Hadith. And the Hanâbilah as a whole are Ahl al-Hadith, as most Shafi'ites in earlier times. So they are the ones who took care of documenting who permitted who to transmit a hadith, athar, qawl or even nass from one scholar or another. The best proof of that are the manuscripts that are found today in different libraries and mosques.

    There is project started some time ago by German orientalists, Muslim researchers and scholars (Sâlih al-Munajjid participated too) who collected so many documents of Ijâzat of all kind of works found in the Zahiriyyah Library, since some years Maktabat al-Asad. They noted all the participants of teaching, transmission and copy-sessions. By Allah! How many Maqâdisah, Banu Munajjah and Banu Taymiyyah are mentioned in those Ijâzât!!! I have been informed that - as can be found in many good edited works - whole families or descendants of Imam Abu 'Umar al-Maqdisi, rahimahullah, were in to this according to these - contemporary and documentary (!) - proofs, that would make the above 'chain' fall into oblivion. And Shâm and Egypt are the centres of transmission in later Islam, in particular: Damascus. And Ibn Taymiyyah lived in youth in that city, was taught in it and taught others at the age of just 19 or 21. And there is no biography written about him but mention is made of his teachers who authorised him in some knowledge or mentioned the fact that he has so many teachers. And for the sake of illustration I remember always two things about this Imam when it has to do with his level in the science of tranmission:

    The beautiful saying of the Hafidh and Imam al-Dhahabi,

    "A Hadith unknown to Ibn Taymiyyah is no Hadith", and the saying of Shaykh al-Islam himself about one of the greatest Muhaddithin of his time (who gave Ijâzat to many Huffâdh),

    "I am pleased to have Ibn Abd al-Dâ'im/Ibn al-Bukhari between me and the Prophet"

    or something alike. I don't remember who, but both Ibn 'Abd al-Da'im and Ibn al-Bukhari were carriers of high asânid and narrators of the 'motherbooks' etc.

    Insha'Allah I will document many of those chains, and I mean: really documentations, i.e. referring to early contemporary certificates with names of readers, repeater(s), hearers, copyists etc. and not fake propaganda by which people are deceived such as the above one.

    Last edited: Jul 21, 2006
  6. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Shaykh al-Islam's Competence in Religious Instruction and Transmission.

    General descriptions and hints to his eminence in dirâyah and riwâyah:

    ابن تيمية الشيخ الإمام العلامة الحافظ الناقد الفقيه المجتهد المفسر البارع شيخ الإسلام علم الزهاد نادرة العصر تقي الدين أبو العباس أحمد بن المفتي شهاب الدين عبد الحليم ابن الإمام المجتهد شيخ الإسلام مجد الدين عبد السلام بن عبد الله بن أبي القاسم الحراني أحد الأعلام ولد في ربيع الأول سنة إحدى وستين وستمائة.
    وسمع ابن أبي اليسر. وابن عبد الدائم وعدة. وعني بالحديث وخرج وانتقى وبرع في الرجال وعلل الحديث وفقهه وفي علوم الإسلام وعلم الكلام وغير ذلك. وكان من بحور العلم ومن الأذكياء المعدودين والزهاد والأفراد ألف ثلاثمائة مجلدة وامتحن وأوذي مراراً. مات في العشرين من ذي القعدة سنة ثمان وعشرين وسبعمائة.

    [al-Suyuti's Tabaqat al-Huffâdh]

    For works dedicated to Ibn Taymiyyah - and I do not know of any other scholar after Imam Ahmad to who people devoted many independant works of biography - one can refer to:

    Hafidh Ibn 'Abd al-Hadi (d.744) in his famous al-'Uqud al-Durriyyah fi Manaqib Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, see:

    Hafidh Abu 'Umar al-Bazzâr, who authored A'lam al'Aliyyah fi Manaqib Ibn Taymiyyah. Refer to:

    Hafidh Ibn Nasir al-Din in his well-known al-Radd al-Wâfir 'ala man za'am bi anna man samma Ibn Taymiyyah Shaykh al-Islam Kâfir, refer to:

    Shaykh Mar'i b. Yusuf al-Karmi, who authored a nice medium book wherein is stated in the beginning:

    وقد أثنى الأئمة الأعلام على هذا الإمام ولقبوه بشيخ الإسلام وأفردوا مناقبه بالتصانيف وتحلت بذكره التواريخ والتآليفو...اعلم أيدك الله أن كثيرا من الأئمة الأماثل والعلماء الأفاضل قد أفردوا مناقب الشيخ تقي الدين ابن تيمية في تصانيف مشهورة وتراجم في التواريخ مذكورة

    [Mar'i b. Yusuf al-Karmi, R. al-Zakiyyah fi Thanâ' al-A'immah 'ala Ibn Taymiyyah]

    A more detailed excerpt is the following, as stated by Ibn 'Abd al-Hadi, about Shaykh al-Islam and his family:

    وقدموا دمشق في أثناء سنة سبع وستين وستمائة فسمعوا من الشيخ زين الدين احمد بن عبد الدائم بن نعمة المقدسي جزء ابن عرفة كله ثم سمع شيخنا الكثير من ابن أبي اليسر والكمال ابن عبد والمجد بن عساكر وأصحاب الخشوعي ومن الجمال يحيى بن الصيرفى وأحمد بن أبي الخير والقاسم الأربلي والشيخ فخر الدين بن البخاري والكمال عبدالرحيم وأبي القاسم بن علان واحمد بن شيبان وخلق كثير
    وشيوخه الذين سمع منهم أكثر من مائتي شيخ

    untill his student states about Shaykh al-Islam himself,

    وسمع مسند الإمام أحمد بن حنبل مرات وسمع الكتب الستة الكبار والأجزاء ومن مسموعاته معجم الطبرابي الكبير وعني بالحديث وقرأ ونسخ وتعلم الخط والحساب في المكتب وحفظ القرآن وأقبل على الفقه وقرأ العربية على ابن عبدالقوى ثم فهمها وأخذ يتأمل كتاب سيبويه حتى فهم في النحو وأقبل على التفسير إقبالا كليا حتى حاز فيه قصب السبق وأحكم اصول الفقه وغير ذلك
    هذا كله وهو بعد ابن بضع عشرة سنة فانبهر أهل دمشق من فرط ذكائه وسيلان ذهنه وقوة حافظته وسرعة إدراكه

    and Ibn 'Abd al-Hadi cites also another student, i.e. Imam al-Dhahabi, who says about him:

    وكان يحضر المدارس والمحافل في صغره ويناظر ويفحم الكبار ويأتي بما يتحير منه أعيان البلد في العلم

    untill its said,

    أما مبدأ أمره ونشأته فقد نشأ من حين نشأ في حجور العلماء راشفا كؤوس الفهم راتعا في رياض التفقه ودوحات الكتب الجامعة لكل فن من الفنون لا يلوي إلى غير المطالعة والاشتغال والأخذ بمعالي الأمور خصوصا علم الكتاب العزيز والسنة النبوية ولوازمها

    And in the 'Uqud al-Hafidh al-Bazzâr and others are quoted:

    وقال الشيخ علم الدين رأيت في إجازة لابن الشهر زورى الموصلي خط الشيخ تقي الدين بن تيمية وقد كتب تحته الشيخ شمس الدين الذهبي
    هذا خط شيخنا الإمام شيخ الإسلام فرد الزمان بحر العلوم تقي الدين مولده عاشر ربيع الأول سنة إحدى وستين وستمائة وقرأ القرآن والفقه وناظر واستدل وهو دون البلوغ وبرع في العلم والتفسير وأفتى ودرس وله نحو العشرين سنة وصنف التصانيف وصار من كبار العلماء في حياة شيوخه وله من المصنفات الكبار التي سارت بها الركبان ولعل تصانيفه في هذا الوقت تكون أربعة آلاف كراس وأكثر وفسر كتاب الله تعالى مدة سنتين من صدره أيام الجمع وكان يتوقد ذكاء وسماعاته من الحديث كثيرة وشيوخه أكثر من مائتي شيخ ومعرفته بالتفسير إليها المنتهى وحفظه للحديث ورجاله وصحته وسقمه فما يلحق فيه وأما نقله للفقه ومذاهب الصحابة والتابعين فضلا عن المذاهب الأربعة فليس له فيه نظير وأما معرفته بالملل والنحل والأصول والكلام فلا أعلم له فيه نظيرا ويدري جملة صالحة من اللغة وعربيته قوية جدا ومعرفته بالتاريخ والسير فعجب عجيب وأما شجاعته وجهاده وإقدامه فأمر يتجاوز الوصف ويفوق النعت وهو أحد الأجواد الأسخياء الذين يضرب بهم المثل وفيه زهد وقناعة باليسير في المأكل والملبس

    And al-Dhahabi, the Hafidh said:

    وله خبرة تامة بالرجال وجرحهم وتعديلهم وطبقاتهم ومعرفة
    بفنون الحديث وبالعالي والنازل وبالصحيح والسقيم مع حفظه لمتونه الذي انفرد به فلا يبلغ أحد في العصر رتبته ولا يقاربه وهو عجب في استحضاره واستخراج الحجج منه وإليه المنتهى في عزوه إلى الكتب الستة والمسند بحيث يصدق عليه أن يقال كل حديث لا يعرفه ابن تيمية فليس بحديث ولكن الإحاطة لله

    [Ibn 'Abd al-Hadi, 'Uqud al-Duriyyah]

    And in these passages there are many indications of his indulgence - just like other scholars of his time - in the science of transmission and study. One who reads any biography, for example al-Safadi's Wafi bi'l-Wafayât, he will realize that. And it is well-known that Ibn Taymiyyah narrated collections and books, in fact he memorized al-Jâmi' bayn al-Shahihayn of al-Humaydi! He also listened more then once to the Musnad of Ahmad, a reference I will bring up later Insha'Allah.
  7. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    This is what I found from Badr al-Din al-'Ayni's history book:

    وقال ابن كثير : سمعت الشيخ تقي الدين بن يميّة، وشيخنا الحافظ أبا الحجاج المزيّ يقول كل واحد منهما: إن هذا الرجل فرأ مسند الإمام أحمد، رحمه الله، وهما يسمعان فلم يعدا عليه لحنة، وناهيك بهذين ثناء، هذا وهماهما.
  8. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    Jk bro Shareef Abu Ja’far.

    The following as one of the shortest Sanad (I think) I could find for the Hanbali Madhab, beginning with Sh ‘Abdullah b. ‘Aqil and ending with the Prophet SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam.

    Bear in mind, this is just ONE of the sanads of Sh Ibn ‘Aqil, whereas his chains in Hanbali fiqh are from about 8 different Sheikhs, and each of them have different chains!

    The prominent figures are in bold.

    ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Aqil
    1. Nasir al-Sa’di
    2. Ibrahim b. Salih b. ‘Isa
    3. Ahmad b. Ibrahim b. ‘Isa
    4. ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Hasan Aal al-Sheikh
    5. ‘Abdullah b. Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Wahhab
    6. Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Wahhab
    7. ‘Abd al-Wahhab b. Sulayman
    8. Muhammad b. Nasir
    9. Nasir b. Muhammad
    10. Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Qadir
    11. Ahmad b. Yahya b. ‘Atwa
    12. ‘Ali b. Sulayman al-Mardawi
    13. al-Zayn ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Sulayman Abu Sha’r
    14. Ibn al-Lahham
    15. Ibn Rajab
    16. Ibn al-Qayyim
    17. Ibn Taymiyya

    18. ‘Abd al-Haleem Ibn Taymiyya
    19. al-Majd Ibn Taymiyya
    20. Ibn al-Minni
    21. Abu Bakr al-Dinawari
    22. Abu al-Khattab al-Kalwadhani
    23. al-Qadhi Abu Ya’la
    24. Ibn Hamid al-Warraq
    25. Ghulam al-Khallal
    26. al-Khallal
    27. al-Marrudhi
    28. Ahmad b. Hanbal
    29. Sufyan b. ‘Uyayna
    30. 'Amr b. Dinar
    31. ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar
    32. The Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2006

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