Jonathan Brown's review of Juynboll's Encycl. of Canonical Hadith

Discussion in 'Advanced Hadith Studies' started by WM, May 22, 2009.

  1. WM

    WM <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Ah...the wonders of the internet.

    Thanks justabro :D

     
  2. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    A brief summary:

    It's crap... save your 200 bucks for something useful, like toilet paper.
     
  3. WM

    WM <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    lol...I love the way academic publishers make their books so expensive. I remember Routledge selling a book I needed- normal length for a book of the kind- for hundreds of pounds.
     
  4. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Yes, so true.. I mentioned it to him personally, but in a decent way.. LOL
     
  5. WM

    WM <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    The real question is...if your wife bought it, would it be OK to slap her? ;)
     
  6. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    If she pays it with her own dimes, no. But if with yours.. :D
     
  7. Pluma

    Pluma <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    wow man, conspirary theory applied to hadiith. This guy is crazy. I prefer believing he is a total liar and forger instead of believeing Maalik and others would forge ahaadiith (lol so ridiculous).
     
  8. Pluma

    Pluma <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    You met him?
     
  9. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Yeah, he use to argue that Nafi' - the mawla of Ibn 'Umar - was an imaginary person. That Malik made him up..

    Imagine that!
     
  10. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    is this the same character who made a "tahqeeq" on the man khadaba mutawatir hadith and tried to argue that there is no tawatur in that hadith......or any others?

    as for his position on Nafi' (rahimahullah) he sounds like a classical mushtashriq


    I hope you out him in his place bro :)
     
  11. WM

    WM <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Yes, that is sort of hs position.
     
  12. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    As far as the existence of tawatur goes, it is also the opinion of ibn Hibban, ibn al-Salah, al-Hazimi and amongst contemporaries, Sh. Hatim al-Awni.

    Ibn Hajar claimed that ibn Hibban and ibn al-Salah made this error because of being unaware of the great numbers of routes of many hadiths. This however is a weak argument because ibn Hibban would definitely have known more hadith routes than ibn Hajar.
     
  13. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    I thought it was about mutawatir lafdhee and not negation of tawatur al-ma'na/manawi as explained by abd al-hayy al-lucknawi (sharh al-jurjani) and I think sharh is fawatih al-rahmut

    I read the edition of al-hazimi's shurut ai'immah al-khamsa by sh. abu ghuddah I forget what he mention in the footnote I know he mentioned something.

    Have you guys read wael hallaq's piece on tawatur? I will load it up when I get a chance iA orif someone else can? I got two pieces from Jew-nobl as well will do that also iA....unless someone else does it before me :) jzk
     
  14. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    I thought it was about mutawatir lafdhee and not negation of tawatur al-ma'na/manawi as explained by abd al-hayy al-lucknawi (sharh al-jurjani) and I think sharh of mussallam as-subut i.e. fawatih al-rahmut

    I read the edition of al-hazimi's shurut ai'immah al-khamsa by sh. abu ghuddah I forget what he mention in the footnote I know he mentioned something.

    Have you guys read wael hallaq's piece on tawatur? I will load it up when I get a chance iA orif someone else can? I got two pieces from Jew-nobl as well will do that also iA....unless someone else does it before me :) jzk
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  15. Abu Maryam PK

    Abu Maryam PK New Member

    why? ibn hajar had more compilations available along with takhrij works that published at ibn hibban's times.
     
  16. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    Well, for starters, ibn Hibban was a mujtahid in Jarh wat-Ta'dil. Jarh wat-Ta'dil - as practiced by the early huffaz - was based on gathering all the narrations of a narrator and analyzing and comparing them.

    An alim like ibn Hibban would have met his teachers whom he narrated from and written 100's of thousands of hadiths by his own hand.

    Remember, we are not talking about some average joe, but one of the IMAMS of Hadith in the age of Riwaya.

    Later scholars sometimes engage in study of a narrator's reports to determine his status, but only to a limited extent. Mostly, they simply look at what those before them said and try to make a judgment based on that.

    Ibn Hajar is a great scholar no doubt, but when he wrote his Bulugh al-Maram, he based it on al-Ilmam by ibn Daqiq al-Id and al-Muharrar of ibn Abd al-Hadi (also based on al-Ilmam). Oftentimes, he follows them in the mistakes they made in quoting certain hadiths.

    The fact that great scholars of later generations were oftentimes dependent on mukhtasarat such as these is an indication that they cannot be compared to the early Huffaz who would have had books devoted to the narrations of every shaykh and every major nuskha for which they had a chain, and from which they quoted at will.

    Bear in mind, I'm not belittling al-Hafiz, few later scholars have as far a reach in Hadith as he does, but... I don't think the two can be compared.
     
  17. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    Yes, that is right... however tawatur ma'nawi falls under what Ahl al-Kalam would have called Ahad Hadiths. Their descriptions of the requirements for Tawatur make it clear they meant Tawatur Lafzi. In fact, I wonder who was the first to make this categorization of Tawatur Ma'nawi and Tawatur Lafzi.

    Incidentally, as a side note, ibn Taymiyyah seems to apply the term Tawatur to any report that reaches the level of Yaqin, even if it is a Gharib Hadith that is at the level of Yaqin due only to Qara'in.
     
  18. أبو نافع

    أبو نافع Formerly - Abu_Abdallah

    Something I like to add:

    - As for Juynboll's view that there is no Tawatur, according to the definition of it by Ibn al-Salah, then he is - I believe - right. But I have to re-check that. If I remember well, the Hafidh said (following al-Hakim) that in every layer at least two narrators report from their source, then two from each one, etc. till it reaches the collector. And this is absent, as far as I know. What does exist are tens of narrators before a collector involved in its transmission, but not in a way described by Juynboll/Ibn al-Salah(?)/al-Hakim(?).

    - Ibn Hibban died in the second half of the 4th century, well in the periode of Riwayah; Ibn Hajar came after it, in the era of Dirayah. All scholars (from the era of Riwayah) who followed up the narrations from place to place, collecting and selecting, shifting masses of narrations, had access to ten thousands of narrations; Huffadh like Ibn Hibban would have several hundred thousands, even more than al-Bukhari, Muslim and others of that golden generation since the diffusion of Hadith continued after them (and therefore also its multiplicity of transmissions) untill the beginning of the fifth century, finalizing with al-Khatib al-Baghdadi and al-Bayhaqi (this one considered the last of them). In another post, in this sub-forum, mention is made by me of the many hadith-collections, some which were considered the largest ever produced (by Nishapuri scholars - al-Masarjisi for example - from the 4th century, the time of Ibn Hibban).

    wa-Allahu A'lam.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2009
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  19. WM

    WM <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    In practice, this must have occurred widely...the problem is that those isnads have been lost to us...right?
     
  20. justabro

    justabro Salafi (Retd.)

    in later generations, yes, and many such isnads exist... in earlier generations no... because the number of Companions who actively participated in narration were limited.
     

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