Man who got into hell because of a fly ... was he muslim or mushrik?

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Umm Yassin, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Umm Yassin

    Umm Yassin Umm Why

    assalamu 'alaykum,

    I read that he's a muslim.
    Can someone explain why please? (Not with your own logic but with proofs)
  2. YSN

    YSN Active Member

    Salaamu Alaykum

    The proof is the hadeeth itself. If the man was a mushrik before he sacrificed the fly, then he would have entered hellfire for being a mushrik, not for the act itself, though the act would have added to his shirk.

    Also do not seperate 'logic' (rational thinking, common sense etc.) from proofs. You need ration to analyse proofs. I don't think you were making a seperation, its just general advice in case someone reads what you wrote and misunderstands your intention. It is enough to say, please provide evidence.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  3. Umm Yassin

    Umm Yassin Umm Why

    I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. I mean is he ''NOW'' a muslim or not. So after the sacrifice he made... was he trown into hellfire forever (mushrik) or will he get out some day (muslim).

    A muslim who is forced to sacrifice in the name of a false god... will he become mushrik?

    I hope this is clearer.
  4. wahhabi dissident

    wahhabi dissident New Member

    he was not forced, if that was true he would not have gone to hell. he did shirk even though maybe he did not believe in his heart but he did it to gain something worldly.
  5. Umm Yassin

    Umm Yassin Umm Why

    Afwan but I just want to know what 'ulama said about this .. barakAllahu feekum.
  6. Ibn Abbas Al-Misri

    Ibn Abbas Al-Misri Well-Known Member

    Bismillah ...

    Ofcourse we are speaking about the case where a real threat and Ikraah exist. Scholars have spoken about what classes as being forced and what doesn't. So if a person is compelled to do an act or say a word of Kufr then Allah has excused him, and the verse is clear in that.
    He does seem to have been forced akhee, as evidenced from his companion who refused to offer such a sacrifice being killed.
    You can refer to Shaykh al-Shinqitee -Rahimahu Allah-, who has some very nice words on this matter in his Tafseer "Adwaa' al-Bayaan" under Surat al-Kahf verse 20. In Sha Allah you will find his comments very beneficial

    And Allah knows best
  7. Umm Yassin

    Umm Yassin Umm Why

    BarakAllahu feek, but I don't speak Arabic.
    Is it possible for you to summarize what the sheikh ra said on this in a few lines please?
  8. Ibn Abbas Al-Misri

    Ibn Abbas Al-Misri Well-Known Member

    Wa Iyaakee ... Here is a haste translation

    Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti -Rahimahu Allah- (d. 1393H) said in 'Adwaa al-Bayaan' 3/250:

    "His saying [Exalted is He]: {Indeed, if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion, and never would you succeed, then - ever}

    [Allah] the Almighty mentioned in this noble verse about the people of the Cave, that they said of their people who are Kuffar and whom they have fled from with their religion, that if they gain power over them, and learn and know of their place, they will surely stone them (throw them with stones), which is from the harshest types of killing.

    It was also said [that what is meant is that]: they will throw them with insults and slander, or return them back to their religion, meaning return them back to the religion of disbelief.

    That which is mentioned here is the actions of the Kuffar with the Muslims from inflicting upon them harm or make them return back to disbelief. It is also mentioned in other locations that this is the action of the Kuffar with the Messengers and those who followed them.

    ... he mentions some of the verses about this ...

    An [important] point:

    Some of the scholars took from this verse that the excuse for Kufr under compulsion is one of the unique characteristics of this nation, since His saying [Glorified is He]: about the people of the that {if they come to know of you, they will stone you or return you to their religion} [al-Kahf 18:20] which is apparent in that they would have been coerced into that and that is a matter they did not find acceptable, and with this He said about them: {never would you succeed, then - ever} signifying that coercion is not an acceptable excuse for them.

    This meaning is supported by the tradition of Tariq ibn Shihab about the one who entered the Fire because of a Fly, which he offered as a sacrifice while being compelled to doing so out of fear of being murdered. Because his companion, who declined to offer a sacrifice even if only a fly was killed by them.

    This is also supported by the understanding of the words of the Messenger when he said: "Allaah has forgiven for me, for my Ummah, their unintentional acts, what they did out of forgetfulness, and that which they were coerced into doing". So his saying that Allah has granted the Messenger forgiveness for his Ummah, an indication that this was not forgiven to the previous nations. Now this tradition even though was weakened by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Abi Hatim has been received by scholars, past and present, with acceptance, and is supported with authentic texts from the Great Quran and Authentic Sunnah.

    We have clarified this issue in [more detail] in our book "Daf' Iyhaam al-Idtiraab 'An Ayaat al-Kitaab" under Surat al-Kahr, when speaking on this verse: {...} [al-Kahf 18/20], which is why we summarized it here.

    As for this nation, Allah has clearly said that he has excused them when under compulsion when He said: {Except for he who was coerced while his heart is at rest with Faith} [al-Nahl 16/106]. And Knowledge is with Allah"

    قوله تعالى: {إِنَّهُمْ إِنْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ أَوْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي مِلَّتِهِمْ وَلَنْ تُفْلِحُوا إِذاً أَبَداً}.
    ذكر جل وعلا في هذه الآية الكريمة عن أصحاب الكهف ـ أنهم قالوا إن قومهم الكفار الذين فروا منهم بدينهم إن يظهروا عليهم، أي يطلعوا عليهم ويعرفوا مكانهم، يرجموهم بالحجارة، وذلك من أشنع أنواع القتل. وقيل: يرجموهم بالشتم والقذف، أو يعيدوهم في ملتهم، أي يردوهم إلى ملة الكفر:
    وهذا الذي ذكره هنا من فعل الكفار مع المسلمين من الأذى أو الرد إلى الكفر، ذكر
    في مواضع أخر أنه هو فعل الكفار مع الرسل وأتباعهم. كقوله: جل وعلا: {وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِرُسُلِهِمْ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكُمْ مِنْ أَرْضِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا} [14/13]، وقوله تعالى :{قَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ اسْتَكْبَرُوا مِنْ قَوْمِهِ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكَ يَا شُعَيْبُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَكَ مِنْ قَرْيَتِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا قَالَ أَوَلَوْ كُنَّا كَارِهِينَ قَدِ افْتَرَيْنَا عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِباً إِنْ عُدْنَا فِي مِلَّتِكُمْ بَعْدَ إِذْ نَجَّانَا اللَّهُ مِنْهَا وَمَا يَكُونُ لَنَا أَنْ نَعُودَ فِيهَا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ...} الآية [7/88-89]، وقوله تعالى: {وَلا يَزَالُونَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ حَتَّى يَرُدُّوكُمْ عَنْ دِينِكُمْ إِنِ اسْتَطَاعُوا} [2/217] إلى غير ذلك من الآيات.
    أخذ بعض العلماء من هذه الآية الكريمة أن العذر بالإكراه من خصائص هذه الأمة، لأن قوله: عن أصحاب الكهف {إِن يَظْهَرُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ أَوْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِى مِلَّتِهِمْ} [18/20] ظاهر في إكراههم على ذلك وعدم طواعيتهم، ومع هذا قال عنهم: {وَلَن تُفْلِحُوا إِذًا أَبَدًا} فدل ذلك على أن ذلك الإكراه ليس بعذر. ويشهد لهذا المعنى حديث طارق بن شهاب في الذي دخل النار في ذباب قربه مع الإكراه بالخوف من القتل. لأن صاحبه الذي امتنع أن يقرب ولو ذباباً قتلوه.
    ويشهد له أيضاً دليل الخطاب، أي مفهوم المخالفة في قوله: صلى الله عليه وسلم: "إن الله تجاوز لي عن أمتي الخطأ والنسيان وما استكرهوا عليه" فإنه يفهم من قوله: "تجاوز لي عن أمتي" أن غير أمته من الأمم لم يتجاوز لهم عن ذلك. وهذا الحديث وإن أعله الإمام أحمد وابن أبي حاتم فقد تلقاه العلماء قديماً وحديثاً بالقبول، وله شواهد ثابتة في القرآن العظيم والسنة الصحيحة. وقد أوضحنا هذه المسألة في كتابنا "دفع إيهام الاضطراب عن آيات الكتاب" في سورة الكهف، في الكلام على قوله: {إِنَّهُمْ إِن يَظْهَرُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ يَرْجُمُوكُمْ...} الآية [18/20]. ولذلك اختصرناها هنا. أما هذه الأمة فقد صرح الله تعالى بعذرهم بالإكراه في قوله: {إِلَّا مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالْأِيمَانِ} [16/106]. والعلم عند الله تعالى.

    And Allah knows best
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  9. Ibn Abbas Al-Misri

    Ibn Abbas Al-Misri Well-Known Member

    Here is something I found ...
  10. Shaybani

    Shaybani السلفي الاثري

    ^ JZK akhi.

    Sh ibn Uthaymeen said that some scholars have used this hadith to say that compulsion is not allowed in action but its allowed in speech.

    What i read in this issue can be summarized into the following: The hai

    1. Compulsion was not allowed for the previous nations
    2. The guy was already willing to slaughter for the false diety but he did not have anything with him.
    3. Compulsion is not allowed in action.
    4. This hadith is weak.
  11. You what?

    You what? <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Death murder violent killing, how Islamic.
  12. Shaybani

    Shaybani السلفي الاثري

    The guys who commited the murder were mushriks (pagans). Its infact very unislamic.
  13. wahhabi dissident

    wahhabi dissident New Member

    yes i did also hear from one shaikh that compulsion is allowed in speech not action. he used the example if one is compelled to spy on muslims or kill muslims that is not excused.
  14. Umm Yassin

    Umm Yassin Umm Why

    Crystal clear. BarakAllahu feek for the texts.
  15. Ibn Abbas Al-Misri

    Ibn Abbas Al-Misri Well-Known Member

    Wa Iyaak akhee al-kareem
    The view that compulsion is allowed in Speech but not action is in fact a minority view, and lacks any clear evidence. As you know akhee the verse of Surat al-Nahl is general, and did not distinguish between being compelled to say kufri speech or being compelled into doing kuffri action, so long as one's heart remains secure upon Faith. So for one to restrict it from that generality and specify it, one should bring forth clear evidence. Even the Athar that was used to try and support that minority view was not clear in that matter and have been replied to.

    Thus the view of the majority of the scholars that compulsion is considered an excuse in both speech and action (when it comes to Kufr) seems to be the strongest and is the one supported by clear evidence, and that is the view held by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, Ibn Hajar, al-Izz ibn Abdil Salam, Mohammad ibn Abdulwahab, and many other scholars [Rahimahum Allah].

    I would be interested to read what al-Uthaymeen said if you can dig it up for me, wa Jazakah Allah Khayran
    Barakah Allah feek akhee, but as I mentioned to our brother Shaybani that view that compulsion in committing a Kufri matter is allowed in speech not in action was held by only a minority, and Allah above all have told us in the Quran that He has forgiven for the believers such a matter and did not make this distinction.

    And Allah knows best
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012

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