Important Only for Shiaa: Questions with no answers

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Ayman bin Khaled, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم والصلاة والسلام على النبي وآله وصحبه الأطهار أما بعد

    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

    Due my experience with discussions and debates with shiaa, I noticed one thing in common that unite them when it comes to their discussion and debates with sunni. This in common factor is: Attacking Sunni to never give them time to discuss what shiaa actually believe in. Also, they tend to avoid answerinf direct questions addressing their creed or religion. Furthermore, they tend to change topics when they are asked about a narration or a belief they have by simply answering a question by asking another question.

    So, I decided to dedicate this thread for quotes from shiaa narrations from their known books and would like NO SUNNI to reply to this thread because I only want shiaa to reply to these narrations and explain on what basis they accept it. [Simply saying we do not accept it does not change that it is a belief of shiaa and let them quote us scholars of shiaa who reject it]

    It is time to expose those who disguise under the love of ahlu albait and start calling everyone else as Kafir or anti-ahlualbait!! That said, I will be posting one narration day after a day so that I can leave one day as a enough time period to recieve replies from shiaa.

    So, I start asking Allah's assistance and His blessings while acknowledging my love, respect and the high rank of ahlualbait that we love them and ask Allah to get closer to him through their love.
     
  2. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله


    Narration Number One: [Part 1]

    Abu Baseer said: I entered on Abi Abdillah - عليه السلام- and said to him: "I sacrifice myself to you, I want to ask you about one matter. Is there anyone here who could hear me if I spoke? So, Abu Abdillah lift up a barrier that is placed between him and another house and looked around then said: O Abu Muhammad ask whatever you like. I said: Your shiaa says that Allah's Messenger - صلى الله عليه وسلم - taught Ali - عليه السلام - a door (i.e. door of knowledge) that opens another thousand doors? He said: " O abu Muhammad, He ( the Prophet) taught him (Ali) a thousand doors that each door opens another thousand door. So Abu Muhammad said: Indeed by Allah this is the knowledge. Source: Al-Kafi; 239: section of mentioning the saheefa.


    Question:


    How to you match the above with the following Ayaat:

    1. "Today I completed your religion for you"....

    2. " O you Messenger, deliver to people what have been revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so then indeed you have not delieverd his Message and Alalh will protect you from people"

    Has been these thousands doors were taught to Ali alone? If that is true then the above ayaat are wrong.

    If this knowledge is concerned with matters that are related to Islam then again the above ayaat is wrong.




     
  3. salaam-ya-ali

    salaam-ya-ali <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    this doesnt contradict quran so what if the prophet gave ali lots of knowledge. the hadith does not say ali got this knowledge after the prophet, rather the prophet taught it to him! islam was completed after ali got the knowledge, and we see in many sermons the ahlulbayt teaching things like electricity, telling of future events in details (i.e about computers etc.) and generally see wisdom on the tongue of ali, his shia are fortunate to gain from his knowledge, just because you havent gt all the knowledge the prophet left us yur jelous and claim it doesnt exist, maybe if u obeyed allah and his rasool and the ul il amr then yu wud benefit from the knowledge ;). and this hadith can enyway be proved thru sunni sources read this hadith of ur own books before moking us:

    “… al-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim on the authority of ‘Ali who said: The Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, said: ‘I am the city of knowledge and ‘Ali is its gate’…. and in another [narration] recorded by Sahih al-Tirmidhi on the authority of ‘Ali, ‘I am the house of wisdom and ‘Ali is its door’…”

    QUITE SIMILAR ARENT THEY :D

    wasalaam
     
  4. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    Still, The question that arise is:

    Is this knowledge were taught ONLY to Ali bin Abi Talib?

    If you say Yes. Then we would like to ask you:

    How is that possible when the Ayaa says clearly:

    " O you Messenger, deliver to people what have been revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not do so then indeed you have not delieverd his Message and Alalh will protect you from people"

    If you say NO. Then we say there is nothing special about that knowledge then.



    First: This so called narration was narrated by Ibn Abbas not Ali

    Second: This narration is never mentioned by Tirmithi but only written in the mustadrak. So, maybe you need to double check with the ones you copy your replies from!!

    Third: This is a fabricated narration as Yahya bin Maien, Imam Ahmad, Ibn Hibban, Ibn Udai, Al-Daraqutni, Ibn al-Qaisarani, Ibn Al-Arabi, Ibn Al-Jawzi, Al-Nawawi, Ibn Taymyya, Al-Mizzi, Al-Dhahabi, Ibn Katheer, Al-Haithami, and heaps other scholars said.


    All the chains of this text includes either a liar, very weak or unknown narrators!!! Yet, even to assume hypthetically the hadeeth is Ok, where does it say that Ali - May Allah be pleased with him, was priviliged with heaps of knowledge that no one has!!!



    First: There is nothing called Sahih Tirmithi!!

    Second: This has been documented in Sunan At-Tirmithi who said after this hadeeth: This is an ODD MUNKAR HADEETH.

    Third: This Hadeeth has mentioned in Da'eef Al-trmithi ( weak hadeeths in tirmithi) and not in Sahih Tirmithi which they are books that were authored by Al-Albani.

    Third: This hadeeth has been classified as Fabrication by Ibn Maeen, Al-Bukhari, Ibn Hibban, Ibn Al-Qaisrani, Al-A'jlouni, Abu Hatim and many others.



    Surely NOT. Unless you mean that what you quoted is similar to that narration with fabrication!

    By the way: you said the most ever stupied words that a creature will ever come out with. I am positive that you entrtained everyone with that :

    I am sure either the shiaa were too stupied to invent computers and electricity since Ali - May Allah be pleased with him - knew everything - as you claim - and how it is made so that others made it first OR that the one who discovered electricity and computers were shiaa - but disguised as non-Muslims- who waited hundred of years to come out with such discoveries !!

    Do you even read what you write!! I cannot beleive that I have to discuss with you! Can you please bring the one who you copy and paste from or you ask when you wish to reply?

    Please,
    I request that from you because now I believe you when you said about yourself that you are 16 years old and you have no knowledge!
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
  5. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    Summery of the first narration:

    This first part of the narration indicates an obvious contradiction to the Quran because:

    a. This knowledge has been given only to one person while Allah clearly states in the Quran that the Prophet is commanded to deliver the message to everyone. So, if such comman is not fulfilled then this becomes an accusation against the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم).

    b. If one argues this knowledge was not concerning religious matters that Muslims need to know, therefore such knowledge is about general life and secular knowledge. Having that said generates another problem, which is: If this is taken true- although there is nothing support it but assumption - then why nothing from wordly creative innovations in fields of science, physics, medicine, elctronics never took place then by shiaa!!!!

    Additional Note:

    The Hadeeth of "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its door" is fabricated hadeeth and the best rank to give to it is very weak.

    The narration come from various routes that their chains either include liars, very weak narrators, unknown narrators, strict blind follower of shiaa.

    The text has been criticised as well, that I will summerize in simple terms why this text cannot be true:

    1. This means that only one person will be the one who spread the knowledge of the Prophet. Having that said, this is impossible to be since message must be delivered in a manner that everyone know it and not to be restricted to specific people so that the evidence is established on people and the news spread easily.

    2. The Message is sent to Man kind, therefore, giving it one person is against the purpose of the message

    3. If shiaa argues that the imam is infallible,
    then we say if this is true (which we will prove that such principle contradict the Quran later on), then how would we know this is true without kowing from someone else besides him since he is the only door!!!

    4. The one who fabricated this hadeeth though he would praise Imam Ali but actually he defamed him and defamed the whole religion due his ignorance.

    To Be Continued InshAllah...
     
  6. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    Narration Number One: [Part 2]...Continuation to the previous narration

    So he - Abu Abdillah - remained silent for a bit then said: It is knowledge but not the knowledge. Then he added: "O Abu Muhammad, we have the collector and what do they know about it? I said: May my soul be sacrificed for you, what is it? He said: "It is a sheet that its lentgh is 70 arms long. Each arm is equal in lentgh to the lentgh of the arm of the Prophet. Its text was said by the Prophet and has been written by Ali. It includes everything that is Haram and everything that is Halal and includes every detail that human beings need in their lives....So, I said indeed this is the knowledge so he replied: It is knowledge but not the knowledge. [
    Source: Al-Kafi; 239: section of mentioning the saheefa].

    This text as it is obvious arises the following important points since its text contradicts the Quran and logic:

    1. This knowledge as it is obvious included a revelation since it has the ruling of everything that is Halal and Haram so either this knowledge mentioned in the Quran or known to public through the saying of the Prophet which makes it in such case worthless and nothing special about it since everyone knows it already or that this knowledge has been exclusively given to one person and hence this contradict the command in the Quran that the Prophet to deliver the message to everyone.

    2. This sheet has details of everything that human being need in their lives in addition to everthing that is Halal and everything that is Haram. How is all that possible to be written in such sheet?

    Common sense says that it is obvious you will thousands if not millions of sheet to cover all these topics.


    To be Continued and what is coming is greater.

     
  7. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    <!-- google_ad_section_start -->Narration Number One: [Part 3]...Continuation to the previous narration.

    Then he remained silent for a while then said: " And we have "Al-Jafr" and what do they know about it? So I asked: what is it? He replied: "A Pot made of A'dam that has inside the knowledge of Prophets and Guardians and the knowledge of the scholars of Bani Israel who passed away. So, I said: Indeed this is the knowledge so he replied: this is a knowledge but not the knowledge.

    The Question that arises:

    These virues seem neither angles or Prophets ever received although they are the best of being. Also, if one has such great knowledge then what have they done with it?

    This part is too obvious to be refuted especially that knowledge is poured into a pot. Besides the fragility of structure of such claim, why to add the "knowledge of scholars of bani Isrel" next to the "knowledge of Prophets"??? If this to indicate anything then it surely indicates that:

    - There is a Jew hand who participated in such fabrication

    - Bani Isreal Knowledge is all derived from what Mose taught them. However, their knowledge was placed as a different and seperate entity in addition to the knowledge of Mose.

    - The myehtic information seems to be core in Shiaa narrations and to a layperson or a fabricator these seems like super powers or super virtues while as a matter of fact they do not realize they are insulting Prophets especially when they put the knowledge of Prophets on one hand and the knowledge of scholars of Jews on another hand as equal.!!!

    To be continued inshallah...


     
  8. assalamwalikum

    Waiting for the valuable posts of ustad ayman in this thread...
     
  9. Ali Al Mahaldheeb

    Ali Al Mahaldheeb New Member

    May Allah reward you brother Ayman ameen
     
  10. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    I will have to postpone posting to this thread because I am currently working on big project that I ask Allah to grant us success in it and write us amongst those whom He favored.

    So, my apologies.

    Barak Allahu feekum
     
  11. assalamuaalikum,

    Inshallah ul azeez.

    Brother is that project related to refuting shian e dajjal?
     
  12. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    No. It is the translation of Fathu al-bari. Did not you see the team members requset for this project in the Multaqa?
     
  13. Abu Ibrahim al-Khurasani

    Abu Ibrahim al-Khurasani كل ميسر لمـا خلق لـه

    :eek:

    what? are you brothers gonna translate the whole of fath al-Bari???
     
  14. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    Inshallah yes. It is time someone to do it. right? (smile)

    Anyone who is fluent in Arabic and English and interested to join, please PM me. We have already started and finsihed the first 5 hadeeths so far. and it is still going on inshallah.
     
  15. Assalamwalkum,
    brother ayman just one request, whenever you get any leisure time from your ongoing project then plz contribute something to this thread.
     
  16. a shia responded to this question:
     
  17. DhulQarNain

    DhulQarNain براهيم الامزيغي

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792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:Standaardtabel; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> [FONT=&quot]What do we have here?[/FONT]

    Are there more than one Muhaddith named Yahya ibn Ma'een, or is this râfidhi lying?
     
  18. i responded him this:
     
  19. Ayman bin Khaled

    Ayman bin Khaled الفقير الى الله

    No there is only one. Yet, the shiaa copies and paste so he does not know what he talks about.

    The Shiaa said:

    So, we say to him:

    Ibn maeen never said this hadeeth is Sahih but said: It is very Munkar. and here is the arabic text:

    وقال يحيى بن أحمد بن زياد : سألت يحيى بن معين عن حديث أبي معاوية، عن الاعمش، عن مجاهد، عن ابن عباس " أنا مدينة العلم " فأنكره جدا.

    أخبرنا عبدالله بن أحمد ابن حنبل فيما كتب إلي، قال: سمعت يحيى بن معين يقول: رأيت عمر بن إسماعيل بن مجالد ليس بشئ، كذاب خبيث، رجل سوء، حدث عن أبي معاوية عن الاعمش عن مجاهد عن ابن عباس عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: " أنا مدينة العلم وعلي بابها " وهو حديث ليس له أصل.


    So, let him accept his words now. Yet, what will happen now. He will; tell you Oh but such and such said it is hasan. Anyway, Tirmithi word "Hasan" means the hadeeth is weak regardless what he adds to it.

    On other note, when disputes happeb over one narration, scholars refer to what unite them i.e. science of hadeeth. That is why we examined the hadeeth based on iots science and who would like to state otherwise, then let him find answers to the defects that are known in the narrations.

    It is a waste of time to debate shiaa because they will twist everything in their favor using myths and reasoning.

    Anyhow, we will accept Quran between us and them and if they want to use narrations then they have to accept science of hadeeth otherwise everyone will start accept and reject what suits him.

    Wallahu A'lam
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
  20. fawzy5807

    fawzy5807 New Member

    What knowledge Ali left to us, all the knowledge about the Islam can be find in one book
    The Quran nothing else we really need to waste our time and resource and always talking
    about the knowledge of ali as if he left us the secret of Atomic Bomb, or
    how to reach the moon or how we can have our own space stations and be in control like other nation,
    we always like to think we better than others GOD create Ali and the 5 Alhi Elbete and
    we all slave to them, we are the last nation on plant earth now.
    the knowledge of Ali did not helped us that much really, for myself i don't see it,
    if we need to know to our dean rules its all in the Quran, we can really live with out ali knowledge
    once i live with friend that is shia from Iraq, and we pray together , after
    we finish the prayer was Ishai then he open one book and spend like
    one hour cursing Abobaker Omer and Osman Yazed and others from the Islamic leader and khalify,
    at first I didn’t bother myself but the man start to do this after every time
    we finish isaha prayer, the I asked him just simple question
    All that people you cursing every night is dead already and why you cursing them?
    He said Ali was suppose to be khalifia before all of them, I told him but the time is gone
    they all dead and nothing we can do to bring them back to punish them if you claim was true and
    as a muslim if a man die even if he not Muslim all you have to do just ask GOD for mercy for him.
    Why you wasting your time cursing some one that is dead? What that benefit you,
    ether you are an idiot man or sick and that is what I believe about all shia


    <O:p</O:p
    </O:p
     

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