Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Madarijas-Salikeen, Apr 30, 2007.

  1. Madarijas-Salikeen

    Madarijas-Salikeen <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    as-salaamu alaykum

    was imam suyuti a deviant mubtadi? He was very open about his mystic ways and of the visions etc.. and defended hadra.. what is the ulama view on him?

    jazakallaah khayr

  2. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    Like everyone else, he was a sunni in what he agreed with the sunna. He was anti-Kalam, but pro-Sufi, and also pro-ijtihad... and this the reality with everyone... you would hardly find a scholar without errors and slips.
  3. joefso

    joefso New Member

    Assalaamu alaykoem,

    What's the orgin of hadrah? Is it something that Awliya did, in likes such Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani?
  4. 1mran

    1mran New Member


    but there is a difference between a scholar making an error in lets say ijtihaad and a scholar having deviant beliefs..

    we are all human. we all make mistakes. the key is to strive to be on the straight path and follow the Quran and Sunnah as understood by the Salaf.

    and Allah knows best
  5. joefso

    joefso New Member

    Define deviant beliefs? Deviant beliefs according to whom? According to Islam, or according to your interpretation or interpretation by scholars whom you like? Who can say someone is deviant in Islam, what gives him or her the authority to speak out on behalf of Islam?

    Yesterday I was reading a article, and I found this interesting:

  6. abu hafs

    abu hafs Anti-Shirk

  7. Madarijas-Salikeen

    Madarijas-Salikeen <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    joefso i see you qoute from the deviant nuh ha mim keller ash shadhili may Allaah guide him and his followers to the haq ameen. Dr. salih as salih ripped him open on mysticism and on ashari aqidah.
  8. joefso

    joefso New Member

    yes, It's not from who, it's about the context. You make it sound all personal with emotions.
  9. Madarijas-Salikeen

    Madarijas-Salikeen <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    this is a fiqhi issue. there is a difference between deviant beliefs and wronging in ones fiqh.
  10. joefso

    joefso New Member

    ok, back on topic then. I'm going to take time looking in the article Brother abu hafz posted in the morning. So I can dedicate full attention to it.
  11. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    deviant in the sense deviation from the straight path... ie moving away from the Quran and authentic sunnah, as understood by the salaf.

    deviatants are those who stray off the straight path

    (Iblîs) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your straight path. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)." (Al-A'raf 7: 16 - 17)

    i hope thats more clear now? insha'Allah

    and Allah knows best
  12. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    i thought from the understanding of the Salaf, if the iqama is being called, you should break u other salah and answer the call, ie pray with the congregation?

    does nuh keller think we should pray other prayers while the Fardh are being prayed?

    i guess it comes down to what the Voluntary Salah are for in the first place. ie they are for coming close to Allah, perfecting an inefficiencies in our fardh salah, they will take the place of any missed salah on the day of judgement, etc

    but the fardh pray is a pillar,

    you can have the fardh prayer with out the sunnah salah, but u cant have it the otherway.

    Its like working extra hours but not doing the proper hours correctly.

    or something like that..

    im just going to stick with the hadith and follow it as it says. it seems very clear. the only issue is "what if u are about to complete the nawafil/sunnah salah, should u complete it or not?" some scholar says yes, and some say no, personally, i go with the second opinion..

    Allah knows best
  13. joefso

    joefso New Member

    Assalaamu alaykoem,

    First time I saw such a video, I was quite shocked. I have never preformed such a form of dhikr, however, going into the depths of it would be interesting. Especially reviewing both sides, in theological aspect and else.

    However brother, could you explain to me:

    - During the physical movements, leaping up and down, that's the ecstasy, the softening of the skin I read, what did the scholars[Such as Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hajar, Abdul Qadir jilani and Qurtubi?) say regarding hadrah? Does the kushoo part also regard to ecstasy? If so, how?

    - How can we know that this was not transmitted from the Salaf?

    - As from above I read the scholars comment regarding the hadith, but what there verdict regarding hadrah? I remember reading positive comment regarding hadrah from Qurtubi. But I'm not able to divide truth from false regarding such sayings.

    - As for the statement from Imam Malik and the Hanafi scholar, what else can I understand from that saying, except that there are `bad' and 'good` suffis. But I don't see how this imply s hadrah? Who are the people of Nasibin?
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  14. joefso

    joefso New Member

    Isn't that the issue brother? When two parties claim to follow the same, and still differ, then the difference must come from the core? Who decides what, and what makes him the judge? Who speaks on behalf of Islam on condemning it? When does one become permitted to say such? Words can be just as sharp as a blade. I noticed we all pick the scholars we like, we don't relate what is against us, only what is for us.
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  15. 1mran

    1mran New Member

    normally the core is the issue.

    its because people dont stick to the quran and sunnah, they deviat (most of the time anyway)

    most of this can be cleared easliy.

    if there is a difference, u should revieve the evidences and see the authenticities. if there still is the difference, go to the Salaf. if there still is a difference, then go to ur imam and follow his ijtihaad.

    we dont pick one or two scholars and stick to them.

    in reality, we dont mind following anyone, as long as they have studied under well known scholars and as long as there knowledge is good and not corrupted with strange beleiefs.

    its normal for people to make mistakes, but if the scholars views are intentionally misguiding, thn how can we follow them?

    Allah knows best
  16. joefso

    joefso New Member

    Assalaamu alaykoem,

    I was more thinking of the scenario that both of them follow Quran and Sunnah and still have difference among them selfs. Like the Sahaba had. So If Sahaba had difference, then Salaf must have differences to. Doesn't mean it's wrong per se, right? Does this then imply if we all follow Quran and Sunnah we are on the siraatal mustaqeem? Why would one go to the salaf when the difference is already with the Sahaba? Arn't the Sahaba more qualified? And how do we distinguish in hierarchy rank who we should take, do we take Ali Radi AllaahAnhu over Abu Bakr Radi AllaahAnhu? Whom from the salaf are the most trustworthy, and according to whom? And is there a difference of opinion on this? Why follow the ijtihaad from my Imam? He is human to and didn't reach a high level such as that of a mujtahid fil-sharah, he is just muttabi and I'm just muqallid.

    Furthermore, how do we now which Scholars are right, what system does Islam have to judge that? Ibn Taymiyya, didn't this scholar study on his own? So whom says well known scholars are ok, or right? How can a newbie say which scholar is right or wrong? Isn't faith to show that it is possible for the mind to accept, not absurd or inconsistent? If so, how does one determine what's strange is and not?

    How does one find out that someone intentionally is misguiding someone? If we can't find out, then how can we judge, else, how does one determine or conclude that he is intentionally misguiding someone? How can we find out his intention?
    Last edited: May 2, 2007

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