Reporting Extremist Activities to a Non-Muslim Government

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by Mustafa al-Muhaajir, Jan 1, 2008.

  1. Reporting Extremist Activities to a Non-Muslim Government|
    Sheikh Sâmî al-Mâjid, professor at al-Imâm Islamic University, Riyadh|

    When a terrorist attack takes place, it is a tragedy which affects everyone in the worst possible way. It is a disaster for the people who die or are injured in the attacks as well as for their loved ones. It creates a general atmosphere of fear and insecurity for all members of society and leads to preventative measures being enacted that erode people's civil liberties more and more. When the attackers attribute themselves to a certain religious or ethnic minority in that society, it leads to a societal backlash against the innocent members of that minority group, as we have seen with Muslim communities in the West when terrorist attacks take are carried out by criminals abusing Islam's good name.

    Muslims, just like everyone else living in society, must do what they can to prevent terrorist attacks from taking place. In many countries, Muslims are being called on by their governments to report Muslim "extremists" in their midst who are likely to engage in terrorism. This puts Muslims in a difficult situation. Who are the extremists? When does an extremist become a terrorist? Should Muslims report their co-religionists to the authorities? If yes, when should they do so?

    The first question that must be dealt with is the ambiguous concept of "extremism" and when it becomes a problem. This is a difficult question, since people have widely varying definitions of what constitutes "extremism" and "terrorism". We will need a have a practical understanding of this concept – without trying to form a definitive definition of terrorism – before addressing the question of reporting people to the authorities.

    There are Muslims in the East and the West who choose to follow an austere and harsh – some might say "extreme" – approach to religious matters, both in their worship and in their interactions with others in society. Some of these people go further and try to insist that other Muslims conform to their ideas about religion, especially in matters of worship. In spite of all that, they do not subscribe to the "jihâdî" ideas of resorting to violence against their non-Muslim neighbors. They do not wish for any violence to take place at present nor do they do not plan to perpetrate acts of violence against anyone at any time in the future. If they were to hear someone suggest to them perpetrating acts of violence against others, they would be deeply offended and disgusted by the idea.

    Such people should certainly not be reported to the authorities since they do not pose a threat to anyone in society, nor do they present a threat to the government or to national security.

    Then there are others who follow an approach of excommunicating from the faith people who disagree with them – often referred to as a "takfîrî" ideology – and who adopt a "jihâdî" approach to non-Muslims and to anyone else they define as being outside of the faith. These people legitimate violence against non-Muslims and make plans to carry out various violent acts in society. They often actively encourage other Muslims to subscribe to their deviant views and to participate in carrying out acts of destruction and violence. They establish secret organizations and associations to further their criminal objectives. Their plots only surface once they carry out their crimes in civil society.

    It is permissible to report such people to the authorities in a non-Muslim country. This is necessary to prevent their ignoble activities form causing genuine harm to innocent people in society; people – whether Muslim or non-Muslim – whose lives are sacrosanct in Islam. The fact that the criminals in question are Muslims does not prevent us from reporting them to the non-Muslim authorities, especially when there is no other effective and practical way to advise those Muslims and to prevent them from perpetrating serious violent and destructive criminal acts like the detonation of bombs in public areas.

    There can be no doubt that turning such people in to the authorities causes those people harm. However, this is to prevent a far greater harm. It is a general axiom of Islamic Law that a lesser harm is to be borne if it is necessary for the prevention of a greater harm. We may not like the idea that the non-Muslim authorities will be dealing with these Muslims, and that those Muslims could face criminal proceedings and even punishment. However, this is something unavoidable in order to prevent tragedies of a much greater scale and magnitude. If we fail to report those who are planning to perpetrate acts of violence in our societies, then many innocent people – Muslims and non-Muslims alike – will pay the price.

    At the same time, it must be emphasized that no one should report anyone else to the authorities without first ascertaining that the person truly poses a threat to society. People should not go around reporting others on the basis of mere suspicions that are as likely to be as false as they are to be true. Only those who are confirmed to be harboring a violent intent should be reported to the authorities. Also, if there is a chance of convincing people who harbor such tendencies to mend their ways, this is always the better approach. However, if there is no other way to protect society from a real threat that a person's activities presents, then it is clear that the person must be reported to the authorities.

    And Allah knows best.
  2. Wild Wild West

    Wild Wild West لا تعتذر اليوم

  3. Skillganon

    Skillganon The Serial Repper

    That is why it is better not to take everything from them on matters that effect us here in the west from someone who has a cursory clue of the reality
  4. hussain

    hussain New Member

    Note the words: We will need a have a practical understanding of this concept...

    It should be: We need to have an understanding based only on Quran and Sunnah.

    Then, there should be adillah.

    But what do we have? Generalizations and conclusions based upon kaaffir-speak and kaaffir concepts.

    Enough said, I think.
  5. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    I am absolutely disgusted by reading this fatwa. Previously Sami al-Majid told the sisters to take off their niqabs, but now he has taken it to a different level: spare the Sururi Salafis and dob the Jihadi Salafi in!

    He should learn some lessons from Sgt. Baker and Lonely Informers Band (of Brixton Mosque) how he was ostracized after he publicly admitted that he had been dobbing in those whom he considered to be extremists for absolutely NO crime of theirs at all! Now he is going around meeting brothers like Shakeel and Moazzam Begg to clear up his name! The Lefties and civil libertarians would spit on his face if Sami ever said this in England. Moreover, this Bedouin apparently doesn’t even live in the West. He is a donkey carrying books in Riyadh! And it is because of his tyrannical fatwas, do we get the lives of Muslim families ruined. Yes, one police raid is what it takes to ruin an entire family, doesn’t matter if the person is released after a week or two without charge or not. And of course, this only applies to British citizens. The foreigners are detained indefinitely.

    Yet, the brother was still incarcerated for 14 months, long enough for his daughter to become estranged from him. It is one thing to inform the police about someone you know for sure that he is going to kill innocent civilians, and it is another thing to unleash the police on an entire section of the society for simply a thought crime!

    This is NOT KSA, Mr al-Majid! This is Britain!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2008
  6. Abandoned-Mind

    Abandoned-Mind <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    This Is Sparta!!
  7. abu_ibrahim

    abu_ibrahim Wahabist

    Not to mention this particular brother who was locked up for 14 months was also assaulted by one of the Brixton guys who broke this brothers nose and the Madkhali guy came back boasting how he beat up a deviant. He was going to report him to the Police for assault, but Agent Baker and his cronies persuaded this brother not to press charges, so the brother dropped the matter. To show their appreciation later on, they end up reporting him to be a terror suspect.
  8. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    I think Islamtoday should generally be avoided. It is as if they are on a mission to water down Islam in the West. None of these guys either live in the West or understand our lives and the challenges we are facing. They should shut down their English section and concentrate on reforming their heads before reforming Saudi.
  9. abu_ibrahim

    abu_ibrahim Wahabist

    Its quite funny how they write about western issues having never lived here to begin with or possibily never even visited here, although Salman Al-Awdah was here very briefly last year. Someone like Haytham al-Haddad who has been here for a few years and is used to British society is a better option. Alhmadulillah he has not compromised on the issue of Niqab.
  10. Abu Treika

    Abu Treika Magoo

    bedhouins telling eskimos how to build igloos....
    Abdullah11 likes this.
  11. Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari

    Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari New Member

    Assalam 'Alaykum,

    I think that the problem with the muslims in the west is that they don't have a heircy of command and authority within their communities. And the governments laws limits their power and even gives them problems legally controlling their own families let alone other muslims.

    What I witnessed from the history of how muslims enteracted living in Kafir countries, was that they where more tribal so to speak and the kufar would leave them to their internal affairs. So if one person from the muslim community/tribe where to commit a crime, then the whole community would take responsibility and either for instance pay the blood money or carry out the punishment of exicution themselves.

    So where am I going with this? I recommend that the muslim communities create something to the effect of a "civil police force" who should be mandated by the government to be able to arrest and hold muslims within their own community(i.e. a completely Muslim run police station, where muslims cannot be transferred out to Kufar police stations). And their jobs don't necissarily have to be just combating terrorism, it could be that someones child is using drugs or is acting out violently so the parants want to place them under police custody to physically prevent him from harming himself and the community, but at the same time not endanger him to the exposure of the evils found in most criminal facilities.

    Sense the British Government laws are not always in agreement with Islamic Laws you find either extreme harshness or extreme leniency in their court sentences. And expecially if the sentances are extemly harsh, then it wouldn't be allowed islamically to turn them over to the police, (Like for instance if they exicuted people for fornication). And likewise they've gone to extremes with the "War on Terror" where any suspect or murderer can be prone to brutal torture (that isn't allowed in Islam) to the extent that even if you knew a muslim that was guilty of worst crimes it would make you hesitate to hand him over to the police.

    So the picture of what a good organization would be in combateing these problems is something like a "Muslim Police Station" where they should make legal documentation for muslims in the community to sign that would make these people responsible for their security and their legal issues, be it criminal, finacial, marital. And the British government should leave these polices affairs alone and not interfere. They can be called when their is domestic issues, and the muslims don't have to worry about the officer coming into the home and violating Islamic codes of ethics. This will give muslims a viable option to handle thier domestic affairs without endangering their family and fellow muslims to the Kufar. So for instance a muslim parent with a child that is useing drugs, robbing and stealing can call these "Muslim Police" to come hold the child in their Muslim run Police station, or even they can set up a "Muslim Juvinile Facility" that could hold the child until the muslim community feels that he has recovered and doesn't pose a threat to them or himself.

    I don't know just a suggestion. But to go and expose the muslim community to these Rabid Cristian Police that would do unspeakable things to not just the a muslim criminal but his whole family, friends and community then this is unacceptable and it would be better for the muslim that feels indanger to make Hijrah to another country. Note: I'm NOT suggesting for muslims to go and work for Kufar police forces, I'm saying that an independant Police force completely seperate from them should be made. Like for instance in some suburban communities they have private security officiers present to handle domesitic problems and what not. And the legal issues would be like how the State and Federal affairs are handled differently in the US. I mean if the US can give Native Americans (American Indians whatever) their own Reservations where they have their own laws and police, then the muslims should be able to set something up to the same effect. I know that the Brittish Government would never let it happen just out of their sheer spite and hate for Islam and Muslims, but I'm not in the business to just say no to a problem without at least giving a hypothetical answer for it.

    As for IslamToday, then yeah Dido on what you all said. There should be a saying: "An Ostrage with his head in the sand shouldn't give directions." LOL My New Quote. Jizak Allah khair.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  12. Abandoned-Mind

    Abandoned-Mind <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Akhi your either ........... or being stupid?

    You expect the British to have areas in their states/countries basically under a form Shari'ah/Islamic control? Like the tribal areas in Pakistan? lol which pipe did you smoke when you woke up todaay?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2008
  13. abu_ibrahim

    abu_ibrahim Wahabist

    Abu Ayoub, I had to read it twice to make sure you weren't joking lol.
  14. Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari

    Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari New Member

    I'm just suggesting, I know it wouldn't happen, but it isn't impossible. LOL I know it sounds stupid (To think they'd ever do that not the idea itself) but I have to give a suggestion. And the next time someone asks you "Hypothetically" what is the perfect way you could address these problems, then you can have an answer even though it is practically unimaginable to ever happen. And cut me some slack brothers trust me I'm with you (Wink, Wink), just being I guess a politition with my answers. LOL.

    P.S. Brother Abondonded Mind can you remove the Quote of my article from your post because I went and changed some things on my tread. Also now that I clearified it wouldn't hurt ya to cut me some slack brother. I love All my brothers fe Sabil Allah and support them so can you please address me like your brother instead of like I was a Madkhali. Jizak Allah khair.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  15. Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari

    Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari New Member

    Assalam 'Alaykum, Just to add before I go I think that these types of "Brain Storming" discussions need to take place, where we can Theorize and speak on a hypothetical level of how to combat problems we as an Ummah are having. The kufar go and spends millions and hire hundreds of people to get results that we can attain simply by presenting a problem on this forum and seeing our brothers and sisters share thier suggestions. And we should all be positive and not shoot down innovative ideas that are within the bounds of Sharee'ah. And if someone was to make an error, we should grow accustomed to correcting their mistake without insult as to not hinder or frighten our muslims brothers and sisters that want to get involved in trying to solve our problems and affairs.

    We go and see many talk shows and news programs where we have the most sick and corrupt muslims carrying the flag of "Thinking outside the Box" and being listened to by the Kufar as people who are creating answers to todays problems. But once a brother upon the correct 'Aquedah and Manhaj suggests something that is "hypothetical" he doesn't only get ridiculed by the Kufar by even his own brothers? We need to change this and differ on how we address someone that wants to debate and someone that suggests solutions.

    I'm going to start Insha Allah a "Problems & Solutions" thread every so often where I present I problem our Ummah is facing and I'd appreciate it if you all would get involved and suggest your ideas on how to solve them. So for example now we've been presented with a provlem on this thread that being, "Handing Muslim Criminals Over To Police"(not just terrorist but all criminals) What in your opinion needs to be done so that this can be considered allowed under Islamic Sharee'ah. I presented my opinion on this thread, Please without insults and wise cracks suggest yours. JZK.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  16. Abandoned-Mind

    Abandoned-Mind <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Akhi I said what I said not through what I personally believe, but just general observation of the World situation and reality. Don't worry akhi, I never thought you had hit the Madkhali crack pipe this morning.

    Regarding your post that I quoted, I can't edited, so if one of the admins could...
  17. fahim1

    fahim1 New Member

    interesting that whenever these issues arise they always get directed back to brixton by individuals who frequent this site.So he was going to press charges against the brother for supposedly breaking his nose(funny it is always noses eg faisal) running to kuffar when the end would have been a court case with a kuffar judge(hakimiyyah fanatics look away now) giving his say and views on it. what happened to help your brother if he is oppressed or the oppressor? Pot,kettle,black anyone?
  18. chase

    chase New Member

    Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari : We don't have a Christian police force here, rabid or otherwise. They are mostly secular individuals, however a few are committed Christians, some are Muslim, and there are probably even a few pagan types who go full-moon dancing to relieve stress, who knows.

    I don't think they would let you set up a parallel police force- Is this what exists in Palestine?

    There are many other agencies connected to the police who deal with issues of terrorism. Their methods are questionable to the extent that many Muslims and Non Muslims here feel very uneasy about our slide into a Totalitarian state. - everywhere there are CTTV Cameras, monitoring, TV programmes about Spooks, radio programmes about security, debates on security, and very little real freedom of expression- You have to be very careful what you say and how you say it.

    So it's against this background , which has generated distrust from many sections of our society, you have to make your decisions.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  19. AHB

    AHB New Member

    Response to Abuz Zubair

    Abuz Zubair

    Not quite sure who you are due to the usual hiding behind kunyas.

    Nevertheless, I intend to reply to your comments posted about Brixton and me on this site. It's a pity that you are uninterested in verifying facts and establishing contexts because had you even tried to ascertain the facts, you would know that the information from KM AND your misunderstanding that I had been 'dobbing' people off to the police, were completely inaccurate, lies and distortions.

    I have NEVER informed about ANYONE, including KM to the police and never constituted part of the prosecution case against him. He knows this and even members of his family have spoken to me, confirming that he has lied about this. If you'd been listening to my interviews in context (where I was able to elaborate) you would have heard that we had informed of deviant ideologies, i.e.Takfeeri, etc. distinguishing other local practices from those of our Mosque. You didn't hear this as it doesn't fit in with your whims, desires and hatred for Brixton!

    I'll try and keep this short as I doubt whether this posting will serve any benefit, other than establishing a proof with Allah about your biased and unfounded position.

    Please do speak with Shakeel who I did meet recently and ask him WHO was the one who wanted to rebuild relationships, clarify positions and work together! Also ask him about what he said in that self same conference IN SUPPORT of what I had said!

    You can continue to hide behind kunyas, making yourself appear courageous for Islam in statements on website forums etc. Only Allah truly knows your reality wal lillahil hamd.

    Cage Prisoners have received a detailed response to the baatil allegations by KM, the slanderous informer comments by the likes of yourself and others.

    Oh, and be sure, I am only accountable to Allah and do not need to go around trying to explain or defend my position. IN FACT, I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU AND ALL THOSE WHO ASSERT THAT IT IS WRONG TO INFORM ON FELLOW MUSLIMS WHO ONE ONLY SUSPECTS OF A CRIME AS THIS IS DHULM AND CONTRARY TO THE DEEN!! This is what the scholars we have spoken to hold as well. Because of this stance, I have been detained and arrested (for attempted murder) because of my relutance to speak about Muslims that have a different minhaj to mine; however, I won't go and prepare sob stories to put up on Cage Prisoners and the like!! I don't have to advertise the fact amongst the reasons for being detained, arrested and repeatedly stopped at airports and interrogated are due to me refusing to fly to the US and give evidence against Abdur Raheem (Richard Reid) and Zacarius Moussaoui! In fact, IF YOU were consistent in your biased seeking of news, you would have seen, from the same source of 'evidence' that I actually acted as the sole British defence witness for Zacarius Moussaoui (everyone esle declined - where were you!?) I gave a character witness reference and clearly stipulated that he should NOT receive the death penalty. What was my reason for this? It was the religious dictate that a Muslim should NOT be put to death at the hands of a Kuffar legal system!

    This is the first and last time I intend to address you directly as, to reiterate, it is unlikely to provide any benefit for anyone, except for yourself if you choose to place the usual spin on it to exonerate yourself and stance!! Allah's Aid is sought.

    Allah tells us in Surah Al Hujurat, the meaning of which is, "If a lying, sinful person comes to you, verify the truth." Do you actually know KM, his character and truthfulness. I suggest that you speak to a few of his family members (who do not belong to Brixton and were on the same manhaj as him - at least they're honest)!

    Abdul Haqq Baker,

    P.s. continue with your slanderous, unfounded comments and I'll simply leave it up to Allah asking that he make yours and my affair well known in this dunya and the akhira.
  20. Abu Ma'mar

    Abu Ma'mar New Member

    Well, well, well if it isn't scotland yard's fave salafi.

    Yeah bro you really helped zacarius moussaoui

    You were really a good muslim with that comment, i mean who wouldn't want it said about them that they were seeking routes to join 'insurgents' and participate in ' terrorism'.

    Masha Allah you were really a bro here too.

    No where at all did you sound like you were trying to save your own neck by taking attention of you and the goons at brixton masjid and placing it on Zacariya.

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