Saudi Muta'ah Bida? --vs-- Shia Muta ?

Discussion in 'Islamic Theology and Ideology' started by muslim_analyst, Sep 13, 2009.

  1. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Misyar Misyaf Mityar Saudi Bida? --vs-- Shia Muta ?

    (please note the question mark after Saudi Bida?)

    I am sure everyone here knows what is Shia Mutah ? Mut'ah means temporary marriage.

    In Islam ( the real Islam Ahl sunnah wal Jamaah aka Ahl al hadith or Ahl al Athar ) it is haraam.

    Many Arabic articles on the internet are available
    SEE HERE -- 1

    SEE HERE -- 2


    our scholars (Hai'ah kibaar Ualama commission of senior scholars) in Saudi Arabia paid by aal Saud government have declared Misyar / misyaf / mityar type of Mutah marriages. So, on what basis Ubaykan and others have made this mutah marriage halal ?

    see here
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    Before anyone insults me or anything like that, answer the questions:

    1) Did Salaf us Salih approve of such Mutah marriages (another name for it Misyar Misyaf Mityar ?)

    2) Did anyone from the Khalaf like Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Hajar, Ibn Rajab, Abul Qasim Taymi, Harawi Ansari etc. etc. approve of it.

    3) Does Misyar / Misyaf / Mityar have any shariah basis ?


    let me explain to you - o reader - very fastly what is misyar / misyaf / mityar

    basically, a person secretly marries and the obligations which are given by Allah (like the duties of Husband or Wife) are waived.

    A guy marries mutah type marriage called misyar with a woman but with the condition:
    1) they will not bring any kids
    2) he will not provide any financial support
    3) the marriage will be a secret
    4) he will come whenever he pleases and leave whenever he likes


    so let us hear from Mody Khalaf a writer in arab news.

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    More on Misyar Marraige
     
  2. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    Third, we are making polygamy that much easier for men and, by doing so, are ruining existing marriages

    And you quote her?
     
  3. Ibn Adam

    Ibn Adam Jū yoku sei gō

    There is a clear difference between mut'ah and misyar.

    In a mut'ah contract there is a time frame for the marriage specified. Such that you'd say for example "I marry you for 1 month."

    Whereas there is no explicit mentioning of a time for the marriage in misyar. And if there is, then it's no longer misyar it's actually a mut'ah contract. True, there are things like the forgoing of marital rights, such as maintenance and support. But that's really up to the individuals if they want to leave off such rights in order to get married.

    It's true that in the cultural application of this then many misyar marriages don't last long. However provided they don't come to an agreement of a length of time in the contract it still differs from mut'ah.

    If you want to suggest that the contract is haram then from a fiqhi perspective you have to bring a specific proof that the contract contains something that nullifies it and makes it prohibited.

    Provided the basic tenets of a contract are met (the wali, the two witnesses, the offer & acceptance, the mahr) then however much someone may dislike the practice they can't use weighty words like it's haram.

    Fiqh needs to be separated from emotion, it's often something black and white, like mathematics. Something is or it isn't. Issues such as how people are abusing a fiqh position are separate from the ruling itself and sure, comment needs to be made on abuse and misapplication.

    There certainly is a lot of media coverage on misyar and the negative results of misyar as a form of contract and I've no objection to such reflections being made. Like for instance how some are using it as means of business to accrue frequent and substantial amounts of mahr and gifts.

    But in terms of the contract itself then to prohibit the contract then there needs to be a specific proof to show it. As we know the basic ruling in fiqh is that something is halal until proof is brought to the contrary.
     
  4. Ibn malik

    Ibn malik New Member

    What part of the misyar contract is haram akh? It seems similar to what Umm al-Mu'mineen Sawda did when she relinquished her right of the Prophet (s) spending nights with her.
     
  5. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    brother ibn adam, where does it say in the Mutah contract of Shia duration of marriage ?

    secondly "But that's really up to the individuals if they want to leave off such rights in order to get married."

    really, can anyone make any type of marriage contract like say: I will marry you with the condition that
    1) You will never visit your family + parents + relatives + brothers
    2) You will never leave the house?

    please enlighten us for the above condition of getting married.

    I thought there is something in Sunni fiqh (shariah) something called Valid contract and Baatil Contract (invalid contract) I don't know about Aal Saaud fiqh. do they have also have soemthing like that ?
     
  6. Ibn Adam

    Ibn Adam Jū yoku sei gō

    I'm sorry but I wasn't referring to the shi'a. I have little interest in the workings, tenets, beliefs or otherwise of their religion.

    Mut'ah as a term used to refer to marrital contract is something known. It was actually something permitted in the early days of Islam during the early battles and later on it became prohibited.

    It's even translated into English as temporary marriage, because the contract includes a specified beginning (i.e. the making of the contract) and an end of the marriage. It's "marriage" for a fixed and specified amount of time and this is how it differs from misyar.

    Again, can I please repeat that from a fiqh perspective we don't bring emotion, disdain or dislike for something into the discussion?

    If you want to say that the misyar marriage is haram then you, not I, have to bring a proof that shows that contract is invalid. As it is you that is making the claim of prohibition.

    The basic ruling is that something is halal unless an evidence is brought to the contrary. You stated that misyar is something haram so would kindly point out the clause in the contract that makes it prohibited in this religion of ours?
     
  7. IbnShaykh

    IbnShaykh 'Mr Gangster Man'

    Muslim analyst thanks for the neg rep.

    It would mean more, if I actually thought you were a practising Muslim, but I very much doubt you are and probably are well on their way to modernism.
     
  8. striving4akhirah

    striving4akhirah New Member

    This guy is a joke Ackh so let's stop giving him a reason to come here and debate with us.
     
  9. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Shukhran ya akhi al-kareem, abo Muhammad at-thahabee, but are you indicating when you say This guy is a joke ... joke like this one

    Captain Wagdi Ghneim says << If anybody calls me a terrorist, I stick a finger in his eye, and say: "You are the enemy of Allah." >>

    al-Bukhari reports in his book a narration from Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam : A person who calls a man an unbeliever or says, 'Enemy of Allah,' when that is not the case will have that come back on him."

    The punishment for calling him terrorist ( someone who puts fear in others heart or scares them or terrorizes them) is TakfeeeeR !

    which one is joke? you decide !

    I clicked on that icon for the first time and got a message approve/disapprove.. it didn't know that will make you loose some valuable expensive points. is there any trophy or prize at the end of the month for anyone who collects max points ?

    now, regarding practicing muslim or not. come to Ajyad al-Masafi, next to the tunnel (above) in Makkah and you can see me.

    now regarding modernism.

    if calling for Imamah (1400 year old pratice) is modernism or calling for the modern Shimagh/Ghutrah (some say British gift to aaal saauud) moderism ?

    if calling for sunnah type marriage (1400 year old practice) is modernism or calling to offshoot shia style mutah type marriages called misyar misyaf mityar ?

    if calling for siwak miswak (1400 year old pratice) is modernism or calling for calling for using oral-b toothbrush with signal 2 paste before salah?

    think again and you decide !

    @ibnadam,
    shukhran for your reply. This is one of the good and reasonable replies. Alhamdulilaah. The forum has nice good brothers.
    however you didn't reply to my questions. True the burden of proof lies upon the claimant. Indeed it does.
    You said something over the lines that everything is halal unless stated haram... "something is halal until proof is brought to the contrary."
    you know this line is used alot by sufis and asharis to justify strange things. Please remember marriage is Ibadah and Sunnah (an nikah min sunnati) so sufis do dancing dhikr and what not and we have some green turban sufis who also have strange pratices. What about becoming Mureed of a sufi shaykh ? something is halal until proof is brought to the contrary.

    what about Mawlid ( celebrating birthdays like hindu pagans do? which Salman Awdah approved of )
    "something is halal until proof is brought to the contrary."

    i can give you 100s of examples on the same reasoning.

    but again, i am follower of Ahl al-Hadeeth wal Athar. My role model is Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and sahaba and their followers and followers.

    So i look back in history. did they have misyar / misyaf / mityar type of marriages then ? yes or no.

    remember, Salafi means to follow salaf and not to innovate new new things. The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam gave us everything. Nothing is short. there is no need to come up with new ways of sunnah.

    Golden principle:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah al-Nu'man bin Bashir, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Truly, what is lawful is evident, and what is unlawful is evident, and in between the two are matters which are doubtful which many people do not know. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and honour blameless, and he who indulges in doubtful things indulges in fact in unlawful things, just as a shepherd who pastures his flock round a preserve will soon pasture them in it. Beware, every king has a preserve, and the things Allah has declared unlawful are His preserves. Beware, in the body there is a flesh; if it is sound, the whole body is sound, and if it is corrupt, the whole body is corrupt, and behold, it is the heart."[/FONT]
    http://fortyhadith.iiu.edu.my/hadith06.htm
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][Al-Bukhari & Muslim][/FONT]​



    also, if misyar misyaf mityar were no different than sunnah marriages why the need to come up with new names for it ? also, why the need to hide these marriages ? also, what purpose does it serve? also how does it help the society ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  10. AbuSulaiman

    AbuSulaiman New Member

    assalaamu alaikum

    Muslim analyst, you also say that misyar marriages are by nature kept secret (you mention it in point 3). Are you sure that is the case? It seems to me that you may be confusing yourself with the urfi marriages which have some popularity in places like Egypt.
     
  11. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    if you read the above report which i posted from OKAZ/SAUDI GAZETTE
    it is well known brother here that misyar ( in egypt known as urfi but slightly different) is hidden.

    Would the shaykh who approved these mutah type marriages give his daughter or sister in misyar marriages.
    please give me one example.
     
  12. yezeed

    yezeed <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    This is a good thread , i've never heard of misyar or misyaf or mityar before.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2009
  13. Noorah

    Noorah اللهم ارحم شهداء غزة

    misyar marriage in itself is not forbidden but the way it has been used now is definitely not right (men who just want a bit of fun on the side and although no specific timing is put like a mutah marriage/it pretty much is a temporary thing) Of course this is not the case for all misyar marriages
     
  14. Ibn malik

    Ibn malik New Member

    I think according to most Hanafis it will be considered Haram as they limit the coditions of a nikah way more than the Hanbalis. They don't even allow women to forbid the man from marrying a 2nd wife.
     
  15. Hanif Muslim

    Hanif Muslim Wa Ma Ana Min l-Mushrikin

    as-Salaamu `Alaykum,

    I am assuming here and so I might be wrong, but doesn't زواج المسيار mean 'Easy Marriage'? It implies a burden or hardship is lifted off the two parties by forgoing a right (or rights) - such as financial support or maintenance etc thus making it easier for them to be married.

    All of the conditions such as having walee for woman and two witnesses are required still and it's generally intended as permanent not temporary unlike the mut'ah of the Shi'ts.

    What's wrong with that?

    Allaah al-Musta`an! I googled misyar and had no idea there were misyar-marriage sites?! Anyway here's two answers I found on the IslamQA website that sums the topic up and maybe somebody might translate it for others (they haven't translated it so far on there).

    (Note: 2nd link contains information from salaf and modern-day scholars like Ibn Baaz, rahimahullaah, but also deals with how to be patient in plural marriages/relationships, too).



    And Allaah knows best.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  16. Noorah

    Noorah اللهم ارحم شهداء غزة

    When you put it like that nothing is wrong and that is probably why scholars have deemed it halal, but i guess when you see the ways it now more commonly used as (although not all the time):

     
  17. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    @yazeed
    We are talking about Misyaar to be haram and misyaaf is the 3rd level down. So automatically it will also be haraam according to the fatwa of Saudi Scholar by the name of Ibn Mani3 here:
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  18. al-omari

    al-omari Well-Known Member

    This is a proof against you, Analyst. Shaykh Ibn Mun'ay warning against these type of marriages when you said all "Wahabi" shuyookh support this.
     
  19. muslim_analyst

    muslim_analyst <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    continuation from above

    Forgoing rights? But what about the rights given by Allah for husband and wife ? Can someone also waive those rights ? Can some put in his marriage contract a condition for his wife that:
    1- She can never meet her parents ever
    2- She cannot leave her house ?

    There must be something called as valid contract and invalid contract?



    I will explain what really misyar means.. at the end of the this post. As for the link which you gave us and say that it contains information from Salaf, then information from SALAF doesn't talk at all about the points which I listed on Misyaar. Rather it is only TWO REPORTS from al-Hasan al-Basri and Ata bin Abu Rabaah they had no problems with visitations.. you know visitations. if you have 4 wives, so you visit one in the morning and the others in the night. so how is that related to Misyar which I am talking about. Yes, it gives an indication about forgoing the right of night visit but that doesn't mean you don't spend the money on woman, she is only for enjoyment (pleasure) , you don't do procreation, and once you are bored you look for another misyar woman. also, don't forget it is hidden. the marriage is not celebrated or people know about it.

    وفي " مصنف ابن أبي شيبة " ( 3 / 337 ) :
    عن الحسن البصري وعطاء بن أبي رباح أنهما كانا لا يريان بأسا بتزويج النهاريات .
    وفي ( 3 / 338 ) :
    عن عامر الشعبي أنه سئل عن الرجل يكون له امرأة فيتزوج المرأة ، فيشترط لهذه يوماً ولهذه يومين ؟ قال : لا بأس به . انتهى

    قال ابن أبي شيبة في مصنفه: (( 92 - [باب] في تزويج النهاريات16705 - حدثنا هشيم عن يونس عن الحسن, ومنصور عن الحسن وعطاء أنهما كانا لا يريان بأساً بتزويج النهاريات.16706 - حدثنا ابن إدريس عن هشام عن ابن سيرين, أنه كان يكره نكاح النهاريات, وكان الحسن لا يرى به بأساً.16707 - حدثنا غندر عن شعبة عن حماد أنه كرهه.)) أ. )



    please read the fatwa above and also, another good news, check this link below for the fatwa against misyaar



    Please notice ibn baz said, it must be celebrated/announced not a secret/hidden marriage othewise it is like zina fornication/adultry


    but then again,.

    but again, i am follower of Ahl al-Hadeeth wal Athar. My role model is Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and sahaba and their followers and followers.

    So i look back in history. did they have misyar / misyaf / mityar type of marriages then ? yes or no.

    remember, Salafi means to follow salaf and not to innovate new new things. The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam gave us everything. Nothing is short. there is no need to come up with new ways of sunnah. He sallallahu alayhi wa sallam also said: Nikah is from my sunnah.
    موسوعة الحديث الشريف - عرض الحديث
    so let us strive to marry the sunnah marriage.

    Golden principle:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah al-Nu'man bin Bashir, radiyallahu 'anhu, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, say:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Truly, what is lawful is evident, and what is unlawful is evident, and in between the two are matters which are doubtful which many people do not know. He who guards against doubtful things keeps his religion and honour blameless, and he who indulges in doubtful things indulges in fact in unlawful things, just as a shepherd who pastures his flock round a preserve will soon pasture them in it. Beware, every king has a preserve, and the things Allah has declared unlawful are His preserves. Beware, in the body there is a flesh; if it is sound, the whole body is sound, and if it is corrupt, the whole body is corrupt, and behold, it is the heart."[/FONT]
    fortyhadith.com : hadith 6
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][Al-Bukhari & Muslim][/FONT]​

    @al-Omari
    and brother al-Omari -- who seems to be very upset with me. Do you know what FLIP FLOP means. It means today the fatwa says OK -- go have all the fun -- then oh, suddenly, some scholars from other countries are accusing us of being dysfunctional so what to do ? Catch 22: Okay, now it is haraam. so you have both fatwas, those who want to enjoy here is your fatwa stamped by and for those who don't want to give their daughters and sisters then use this fatwa. Works both ways. old game... This is some show I say !!

    Anyway, for al-Omari
    read the link below and see how many still approve mutah type misyaar marriage.....

    علماء يجيبون. زواج المسيار حلال أم حرام ؟

    if you want more links it could be provided.

    But you missed the point by 1000 miles... I thought this is Ahl al Hadith wal Athar...but i find many who are from Ahl al-Ray, similar to the followers of Marifah.net Zahid al-Kawthari types....suits the purpose quote khalaf, doesn't suit the purpose then make excuses.

    we follow Salaf.... we don't innovate. Our religion is complete no need for new stuff...

    I wonder now what the brothers and sisters who posted above in defence of Misyar have to say after seeing the fatwas of all those opposing it ? Will you take back your claim that this NEW type of shiah muta marriage has no place in Islam as per the fatwas above ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  20. Salamtoyou

    Salamtoyou New Member

    How can misyar marriage be right when the prophet (saw) said that men should get married when they have the means to do so? If you don't have the means to support a wife you should get a life. It's the husband's job to look after his wife because men are the protectors and maintainers of women don't forget. If you opt for misyar marriage you are taking the easy way out and you can't claim to be serious about your marriage.

    A woman should never accept a misyar marriage. Allah has given women rights and she should appreciate those rights and not disrespect herself by forgoing those rights. It's not right to disregard the rights given to you by Allah in favour of an idea that is convenient for someone . What are you going to do if you have kids? Are they supposed to fend for themselves?
     

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