Important Sighting of Moon in other country

Discussion in 'Global Affairs' started by Aboo Muhammad, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. Aboo Muhammad

    Aboo Muhammad إلى متى .. إلى متى؟

    Assalamu 'Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah

    I am in a spot of trouble, and need help.

    There is a country east of mine which have spotted the moon for Ramadan. Noone in my country has. My local masjid is not fasting tomorrow because they only accept sightings from this country. There are other organisations (not masajid) close to where I live which are fasting tomorrow. More importantly, my family are not fasting tomorrow. Should I fast day after and stick with my family? Or should I fast tomorrow?

    I would also like statements of what scholars have said.

    BarakAllahu Feekum.
  2. Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman

    Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman Formerly Abu Abdurrahman

  3. Aboo Muhammad

    Aboo Muhammad إلى متى .. إلى متى؟

    That is between Pakistan and Saudi. I am talking about Australia and New Zealand. Also, Saudi is west of Pakistan, which means they would see it in Saudi before Pakistan.
  4. Abul Hasan

    Abul Hasan Aim High.

    New Zealand have sighted the moon? You're joking right...that's virtually impossible. I'm not fasting tomorrow and most of Queensland (except, let me guess, AMYN and UMB) is fasting on Tuesday.

    One group here says that we should fast based on Australia's sighting, another (ASWJ) say that we should go by Australasia's (Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.) sighting, another (HT) we should go by global sighting (i.e. anywhere in the world)...and then there are the Turks who are adamant on calculations.

    I've always gone with opinion 1 simply because virtually every masjid in Queensland goes with that option.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  5. Aboo Muhammad

    Aboo Muhammad إلى متى .. إلى متى؟

  6. Abul Hasan

    Abul Hasan Aim High.

    Dilemma indeed...I personally am sticking with Tuesday because (1) I have fatawa from Sh. al-Munajjid to back local sighting plus some Saudi brothers in my masjid asked the question to some of their shuyuukh back home and they gave the same fatwa (2) I'd be one of a handful of people in Queensland fasting tomorrow and I like to stick with the jama'ah (3) it'll cause discord in my family.
  7. frontline

    frontline New Member


    The view that sighting of the moon in one country becomes binding for all other countries is the view of the majority of scholars, The view that there may be differences in sighting between different countries is the more correct view according to the Shaafa’is.

    The famous Hanafi scholar Imam Sarkhasi (died 483 A.H.) in Al-Mabsoot quotes the narration from Abu Dawud (2333, 2334) that the Muslims did not begin fasting since they did not see the moon. Then a man, from out of Madinah, came and told the Prophet (saaw) that he had seen it (the moon). The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم asked him if he was a Muslim to which the man answered in the affirmative. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم then said: “Allahu-Akbar! one is enough for all Muslims” The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم fasted and asked the people to stop eating and start fasting. [Al-Mabsout by Imam Sarkhasi; 3-52]

    Ibn Taymiyyah concluded: “To summarize: a person who learns about the sighting of the moon in good time to be able to utilise it for fasting, for ending his fast, or for sacrifice, he must definitely do so. The texts [of Islam] and the reports about the Salaf point to this. To limit this to a certain distance or country would contradict both the reason and the Shar` (Islamic law).” [Majmu Al-Fatawa, volume 5, page 111]

    One who sights the moon should be of good character. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: A Bedouin came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and said, I have seen the new moon tonight. He said, “Do you bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)?” He said, Yes. He said, “Get up, O Bilaal, and announce to the people that they should fast tomorrow.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (691), Abu Dawood (2340), al-Nasaa’i (2112) and Ibn Maajah (1652). The hadeeth is da’eef (weak) and not saheeh. It was classed as weak by al-Nasaa’i, al-Albaani and others. As the hadeeth is weak, there is no contradiction between it and what we have mentioned about it being essential that the one who sights the moon should be of good character.

    the Caliph Umar RadiAllahtala anhu told people not to concern themselves with the relative size of the new moon. He informed them that some months it will be larger than others,which is consistent with modern knowledge due to the number of hours that have transpired after conjunction. In a sound hadith in the chapter on fasting in Imam Muslim’s collection

    The co-founder of Dar al-Uloom Deoband, Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi said: “If the people of Calcutta sighted the moon in Friday, whereas it was sighted in Makkah on Thursday itself, but the people of Calcutta did not know of it (the sighting on Thursday); then whenever they come to know of this, it will be obligatory for them to celebrate eid with the people of Makkah and make up (Qada’) for the first fasting.” [Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi, Sharh Tirmizi (Explanation of Tirmizi), Kaukab un Durri, pg 336 Urdu edition].

    Fatwa of Dar-ul-Uloom Deoband(India)“Wherever the sighting is confirmed, however far off it may be, even if it were to be thousands of miles; the people of this place will have to abide by that.” [Fatawa Dar ul Uloom Deoband, Vol. 6 page 380, Urdu edition]

    The founder of the Barlevi's said: "In the correct and authentic mazhab of our Imams, with regard to the sighting of moon for Ramdhan and eid, distance of the place of sighting is of no consideration. The sighting of the east is binding upon west and vice versa i.e. the sighting of west is similarly binding on east." [Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan, Fatawa Rizwi; Vol 4 page 568, Urdu edition]


    As for the Shub'ha (controversial evidence) of those who claim that the beginning of the fast and the end of the fast i.e. the day of Eid could be different, this can be summarised in two points:

    1- The first Shub'ha: They claim that to each people living in one country their sighting, for each people should follow their own times just like the times of prayer; this is why they said: The precept lies in the Matali', i.e. the time of rising (of celestial bodies). In answer to this claim we say the following: The times of prayer are subject to their scheduled times and these are different even in the one region, for the signs which the Shari'ah has specified would occur at different times; as far as fasting is concerned, this difference also applies at the time of Imsak (beginning of fast) at dawn and at the time of Iftar (end of fast) just after sunset, this is so because the text has indicated this difference:

    Allah سبحانه وتعالى says:

    وَكُلُواْ وَاشْرَبُواْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَكُمُ الْخَيْطُ الأَبْيَضُ مِنَ الْخَيْطِ الأَسْوَدِ مِنَ الْفَجْرِ ثُمَّ أَتِمُّواْ الصِّيَامَ إِلَى الَّليْلِ

    "And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from its black thread; Then complete your fast until the night appears" [Al-Baqarah, 2:187]

    The Imsak and the Iftar times differ from one place to another just like the times of prayer, which also differ from place to place, this difference happens in the one single day, however, the beginning of the month of fasting must begin on the same day all over the whole world, and the difference occurs only in the parts of the single day. This is what the texts of the Ahadith have clearly indicated; and this is what is confirmed by the understanding deduced from the Shari'ah rule. The difference in the rise of the new moon between the farthest two points in the world does not exceed twelve hours; and the classical Mujtahids (learned scholars) are excused for not understanding this deduction from the Shari'ah rule, for at the time, they were not in a position to clearly realise the movements of the earth, sun and the new moon. And now that the deduction made from the rule is understood, there are no pretexts or excuses left for those who claim that the difference in the time of rising could exceed one day, let alone those who claim that it could be even a few days. Therefore, the month of fasting begins for the Islamic Ummah all over the world on the same day and the end of the month of fasting and the beginning of Eid also occurs on the same day for all the Islamic Ummah all over the world.

    Its not necessary the moon should be sighted only in Makkah because Muawiyah radiallah tala anhu saw it in syria and that was enough.

    Imam Juzairi said in Fiqh al Madhahib al Arba'a (The Fiqh of the four schools of thought) Volume 1 gives two views of the Hanafi's regarding this: 1) The sighting of the moon by any Muslim should be accepted whether slave, free, man or woman without inquiring whether they are just or not,

    Mu'az narrated: I said: O Messenger of Allah. What do you think if we had leaders who do not follow your Sunnah and do not adopt your order; in what do you order regarding their affair? The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: There is no obedience to the one who does not obey Allah 'azza wa jall.'

    1- The second Shub'ha:Sahih Muslim Book 6 Chapter 5:

    Kurayb narrates that Umm al-Fadl sent him to Mu‘awiyah in Sham for something.Kurayb says, "I went to Sham and finished the job. I was in Sham when the month
    of Ramadan began and we saw the moon the night of Friday. When I reached Madinah at the end of the blessed month, Ibn ‘Abbas asked me about Sham.
    (After answering him) He then asked me when we saw the moon.I said, 'We saw the moon the night of Jumu‘ah.'He asked, 'Did you see it as well?'
    I said, 'Yes, I saw it too and many others saw it and we all kept fasting and so did Mu‘awiyah (that is according to that moonsighting).'Ibn ‘Abbas said, 'But we saw the moon on Saturday night, therefore, we will keep fasting for thirty days according to that unless we sight the moon on the 29th.'I asked, 'You don’t think the moonsighting of Mu‘awiyah and his fasting is enough for you?' Ibn ‘Abbas replied, 'No, this is how the Blessed Prophet (Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم ) taught us.'"
    (Muslim H.1819, Tirmiði H.629, Nasa'i H.2084, Abu-Dawud H.1985, Musnad Ahmad H.2653 Dar-qutni H.2234)

    The answer to this claim lies in the fact that this report is not a Hadith of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم but the Ijtihad of a Sahabi, and the Ijtihad of the Sahabi is not comparable to the Hadith of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. The fact that Ibnu Abbas (R) did not act upon the sighting of the people of Al-Sham reflects an Ijtihad and it cannot be used as a Shari'ah evidence; and besides, the Ijtihad is always nullified by the general Shari'ah evidence, thus the Hadith must be acted upon ahead of the Ijtihad which has to be abandoned. Furthermore, the Ijtihad of the Sahabi cannot specify the general term of the Hadith. As for the saying of Ibnu Abbas at the end of the report: "This is how the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم commanded us.", it is not a Hadith but merely the way Ibnu Abbas understood the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم in which he صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Fast when you see it and break fast when you see it." This indicates that Ibnu Abbas understood the Hadith as such; though he did not say:This is how the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم reported it, nor did he say: This is how we learnt it from the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم, but he said: This is how the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم commanded us.

    Imam Al-Shawkani explained the Hadith as follows, he wrote in his book entitled Nayl-ul Awtar the following: "I realise that the evidence is derived from the report of Ibnu Abbas and not from his Ijtihad (exertion) which people understood as such, and what is referred in his saying: "This is how the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم commanded us.", is his saying (i.e. Ibnu Abbas): So we are still fasting until we complete thirty days; and the command of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم lies in the Hadith extracted by the two Sheikhs (i.e. Bukhari and Muslim) among others with the following wording: "Do not fast till you see the new moon and do not break fast till you see the new moon, and if the sky were cloudy, then complete it as thirty days." And this does not specifically apply for the people of one region to the exclusion of others but to all the Muslims." [Nayl ul- Awtar, volume 4, page 268]

    Muslim on the authority of Abu Hurayrah: that "The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم forbade fasting on two days, the day of al-Adha and the day of al-Fitr".

  8. Aboo Muhammad

    Aboo Muhammad إلى متى .. إلى متى؟

    1 and 3 are an issue with me. I don't really mind 2...
  9. Abu Idris Al-Albani

    Abu Idris Al-Albani New Member

    How can you start fasting on Tuesday? The 30th day of Sha'ban was Sunday making the first of Ramadan on Monday by default.
  10. Abul Hasan

    Abul Hasan Aim High.

    Wa 'alaykumus salaam warahmatullah

    I was scrolling down, saw this and that just put me off the rest of the article. Sorry.

    Aboo Muhammad bro, your decision in the end. Sydney is split as well...the Tablighis will go Tuesday, Salafis/HT on Monday.

    No we have moon sighting across Australia for the start of every lunar month and according to our calender, 30th of Sha'ban is Monday.
  11. frontline

    frontline New Member


    The rest of the article is true.One must Concentrate on that.Scholars of all Aqeedah believe in global fasting except the madhab of Imam shafi.This article highlights views of all .....if i may say sects.

    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  12. Abu Idris Al-Albani

    Abu Idris Al-Albani New Member

    Hmmmm, interesting. I always wondered, most of the time we only look at the calender for Ramadan. Why don't we do every single month by the calender? Interesting.
  13. Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman

    Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman Formerly Abu Abdurrahman

    I'm in Malaysia and we're fasting tomorrow, just came back from taraweeh actually..
  14. Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman

    Abu 'Abd Al-Rahman Formerly Abu Abdurrahman

    Bro the point of the fatwa is to stick with what the majority of the people are doing, I mean do you really want to pray Salat Al-Eid all by yourself?!
  15. الحصان الأسود

    الحصان الأسود Oudh Burnerrrr

    What's worse is that in some countries they do not follow the sighting of the moon, but they use calendar instead. To make it simple for everyone, if you ask them now, i.e. when is Ramadhan in 2020, they will give you the date straightaway ...

    Now what does one do in a situation like this???
  16. frontline

    frontline New Member


    I did'nt posted the fatwa link to follow the fatwa but to read the proof that the site admits The view that sighting of the moon in one country becomes binding for all other countries is the view of the majority of scholars.

    Missing The Eid Prayer

    If one misses the Eid prayer in Jama`ah, he must pray two Rak`at. Imam al-Bukhari headed a section as, "Section: One Who Misses the Eid Prayer Should Pray Two Rak`at." And he added that `Ata' said:"When one misses the Eid prayer, he prays two Rak`at."

    Al-Hafiz Bin Hajar commented on this:"In this title are two important points:
    The permission to make up the Eid prayer for the one who misses praying it with the Jama`ah - whether that happened by compulsion or choice.
    That it is made-up as two Rak`at."

    Waliyyullah ad-Dahlawi said:
    "This is the opinion of ash-Shafi`i - that if one misses the prayer with the imam, he should pray two Rak`at in order to at least attain the virtue of performing the Eid prayer, despite the fact that he missed the virtue of praying it in Jama`ah with the imam.
    As for the Hanafis, there is no make-up for the Eid prayer. If one misses it with the imam, he has totally missed it."

    Imam Malik said:"In my opinion, anyone who prays the Eid prayer individually, whether man or woman, should say seven Takbirs in the first rak`ah, before recitation, and five in the second, before recitation."

    Sheikhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said: "... Thus we lean towards the opinion that Salatul-Eid is fard `Ayn (individual obligation) on each individual. This is the opinion of Abu Hanifah and others, and is one of the two reported opinions of ash-Shafi`i and of the school of Ahmad.

    We need to remember the statement of Ibn Masud (ra): "The Jama'a is Haq (truth) even if it is one person".

    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  17. abuimaan

    abuimaan Active Member

    There is much difference of opinion regarding this issue. Read Ibn Uthaymeen's Fatwa stating Saudi should not be followed.

    Barelvies have lost their grip on Reality as they are starting their fast on Tuesday in Bradford. How can that be when Muslims in East of the UK are fasting on Monday? When Muslims in Indonesia/Saudi/New Zealand have corroborated reports of the sighting the moon, on what basis can they allow fasts to begin on Tuesday? They are clearly going against their Imaam- Ahmed Raza- as well as the Hanafi Madhab. Indeed they announced their Ramadan calenders a Month ago- which announced Tuesday as the first day- Baatil according to the Hanafi Madhab cos it is purely based on the Observatory and Calculations. So they dont seem to follow their Imaam or the Hanafi Madhab, who they following? Answer: Desires.

    This is a much confusing issue...some things just dont add up.
  18. mohamed guliye

    mohamed guliye New Member

    brother in islam my suggestion is too as per the moon was sited from another country and if all muslim brothers and sisiter are fasting you join them thank you
  19. Aboo Muhammad

    Aboo Muhammad إلى متى .. إلى متى؟

    But that is the problem, as Abul Hasan pointed out there are Centres and a Masjid fasting tomorrow....

    Anyway, I decided not to fast. I will stick with the Masjid Insha'Allah.
  20. learn arabic

    learn arabic <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    so wait, im currently not fasting, and its almost 5 pm now. now that ive come across this thread, should i start fasting or do i make up a fast.

    because i looked all over the place for moon sighting reports and found non, and no moon in the sky, so i was going to start aug 1st...

Share This Page