What can a person do if..

Discussion in 'Islam in General' started by mika, Jan 20, 2007.

  1. mika

    mika New Member

    Hi,

    I have a question to the board.

    Me and some friends has discussed what to do if we want to convert away from Islam, either into another religion, or beeing an atheist.

    best regards
    Mika
     
  2. When you are becoming a muslim, you are getting into a contract of a kind. You take on the responsibility of obeying God, according to your ability, on at least the 5 pillars, and God takes it upon Himself to Grant you Paradise, to Forgive your shortcomings, to Guide you according to your own striving to be guided. Since this is not a simple contract which is to do with some sum of money, or some goods, and since this contract is between a human and the Creator of all that Exists, breaking the contract, will entail proportional fines. In an Islamic country, a person that openly becomes an apostate, is given a few days to think over, and if he is stubborn, he is to be executed. Now, in reality, this takes place very rarely, just as the stoning of the formerly married adulterers, because for this to take place, there have to be 4 witnesses who had witnessed the act of immorality. In fact, there is not a single recorded case of this happing in Islamic history.

    By the way, I think this is the same in christianity and judaism. Similarly, today in europe, if you dont believe in holocaust, or if you doubt the numbers, it is a crime for which you could be imprisoned.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2007
  3. Umm Ahmed

    Umm Ahmed 2C oursels as ithers C us

    Hi Mika , can you tell us if you are a muslim or not ?

    Thanks
     
  4. Abu Faaris As-Sumalee

    Abu Faaris As-Sumalee هذا الطريق فأين الرجال؟


    :D .........
     
  5. mika

    mika New Member

    Dear Abdullah as-Shishani,

    Thank you very much for your answer.
    As I read you answer, in a Islamic contry, there would proberly be consequences by turning away from Islam, but in europe (from where I live) it can be safe to convert away from Islam it, is that correct?
    The reason that I ask is that I see that Christians here in Europe can convert away from christianity, if they want, and we really start to symphasize with that view on religion, meaning that people have to make its own choise in life without beeing forced by others, do you agree?
     
  6. Umm Ahmed

    Umm Ahmed 2C oursels as ithers C us

    Hi Mika .

    If one was to leave Islam as Abdullah as shishani pointed out there is a punishment for that , wither your in a muslim country or not , the punishment remains the same and on top of that you will be earning Allaahs anger so your not safe at all.
    64:7, "The Unbelievers think that they will not be raised up (for Judgement). Say: 'Yea, by my Lord, Ye shall surely be Raised up: then shall ye Be told (the truth) of All that ye did. And that is easy for Allah.'"

    Islam teaches that a newborn has an innate ability to know and believe in his creator, and to understand good and evil. Muhammad (pbuh) stated: "Every child is born with the believing nature...it is his parents who make him into a Jew or a Christian." There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam. The Qur'ãn, , prohibits the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam."Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.

    However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change." The word "Islaam" means "submission to the will of God." The Qur'ãn says that: "No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allaah and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)On the issue of apostasy, "Islaam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.It is the most abhorrent of sins
    Islam is the only religion Allaah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow.
     
  7. 'Abd al-Kareem

    'Abd al-Kareem Scaffolding

    Assalamu 'alaikum

    I'm sorry to hear that. But know this: Once you leave Islam, there is no coming back. Even if you spend the rest of your life fighting for the sake of Allah and die on that path, it will not be accepted of you.
    So think it over before you make any rash decisions. And get new friends.
     
  8. morbius

    morbius <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Freedom of religion is one of the cornerstones of our European society. Everyone is allowed to choose his religion based his own personal choice.

    If you want to change your religion, it is perfectly legal here. However, such choice should not be made without careful consideration. And I would advise anyone against changing religion before he/she reaches maturity.
     
  9. mika

    mika New Member

    Dear Umm-Ahmed,

    Thank you very much for your answer.

    In the meantime, I do not quit understand what you are saying:

    Quote: wither your in a muslim country or not , the punishment remains the same and on top of that you will be earning Allaahs anger so your not safe at all.[/I]

    What do you mean by that I understand that a person will be earning Allaahs anger, but what additional punishment can be expected?

    Also, as Morbious writes, freedom of religion is very important in Europe, don't you think that this thinking should be adapted by Muslims living outside the Muslim world?

    Best regards
    Mika
     
  10. Umm Ahmed

    Umm Ahmed 2C oursels as ithers C us

    What I meant is that the punishment remains the same even if your in a non muslim country , just that its not carried out . Abdullah as-Shishani already stated that the person has to be executed and in your post numbered 3 you also stated that you know there would be consequences.

    I have already stated in my previous post what the stand is on freedom of religion , no one is to be forced to become a muslim , but leaving the fold of Islam is apostacy is a major sin. The muslim world is the whole of this earth we cant ignore parts of our faith because we are the minority , though in reality we dont have the authority to implement the sharia in certain areas .
     
  11. mika

    mika New Member

    Dear Umm-Ahmed,

    Thank you very much for your answer.

    Please correct me, but from what I hear you say is that if somebody want to convert away from Islam, into another religion, in Europe, the punisment will come from Allah alone, after this life, but no punishment will be carried out by humans since since this will be ileagal in Europe? Is that correct?

    Sorry for all my questions, I just want to be sure that I understand this fully?

    Best regards
    Mika
     
  12. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    You are right, because the citizens in Europe fall beyond Islamic jurisdictions.

    We need to understand a few things about the nature of Islam before understanding capital punishments for certain crimes such as apostasy.

    Firstly, Islam is not just a religion. It is also a powerful political movement, which still maintains its control over a huge population of the world.

    Secondly, even if there isn't an Islamic state, the Muslims are also considered a part of one global nation, merely on the basis of their faith.

    Thirdly, apostasy from Islam is considered a capital offence, tantamount to treason in many Western countries.

    The objections people raise to this is supposedly lack of religious freedom.

    However, what we often fail to realise is that there is no hard and fast rule defining what exactly religion is or isn't, or what exactly 'freedom' is, let alone what it means when 'religion' is placed next to 'freedom'.

    For instance, many would like to describe Islam as a religion, which it is, but as the term is understood, they fail to see the strong political side of Islam. On the other hand, secularism is conveniently defined as a political thought, whereas if we see its effects on religious minorities in France and Turkey, secularism emerges as a new theocracy, for it behaves in exactly the same way, even if it is not a 'religion' (in a narrowly defined word)

    Freedom is another example, where we are all now familiar with the vagueness of the term. In fact, our history for the past few centuries has always been that of Western freedom infringing on Eastern freedom.

    The vagueness is multiplied when we place 'religion' next to 'freedom'.

    However, the fact we should all acknowledge that 'religious freedom' is a relative term, in the sense that what I may regard to be 'religious freedom', you may regard to be bordering anarchy. Also, I do not believe there is nation on planet earth that believes in absolute religious freedom. Everyone would confess that there is a limit to this freedom.

    There is also religious freedom in Islam, in the sense that people can continue to remain on their religion and practise it as they please. As a matter of fact, religious minorities in an Islamic state are even allowed to have their own judicial system. None is allowed to force a Jewish man to become a Christian or a Muslim.

    There are certain religious freedoms that are not allowed, such as blasphemy, or for a Muslim to change his religion. From the wisdoms behind this law is that a) when a person becomes a Muslim, he only does so after he is theologically and ideologically convinced of Islam, and b) to prevent the enemies from infiltrating the ranks, knowing the secrets of the state, etc, and then reverting back to the previous religion in enmity to Islam. Hence, an apostate is deemed as a threat to the state.

    The point to note here is that this ruling does not apply to the children of the apostate, and they can remain as non-Muslims just like their father, without facing any punishment. This is because their status is known and they are not at all a threat to the state.

    This is where Islam draws the line in terms of religious freedom.

    Some Western countries have their own blasphemy laws where this 'freedom' is not tolerated, whilst some countries, ironically, do not have laws against denial of God, but they do have laws against denial of Holocaust! This is deemed absurd by many nations in the world, just as you may regard some of our laws absurd.

    And may be this is where relativism plays its part.
     
  13. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    in countries which claim "civility" like the U.S. there are still crimes which are punishable by death.

    This being the case, why does it seem a shock to people if another way of life also subscribed to such methods as punishment? (i.e. death)
     
  14. mika

    mika New Member

    Dear Abuz Zubair

    Thank you very much for your long and detailed answer.

    From what I see from your answer, it is not allowed, according to Islam, to convert away from Islam.

    On the other hand, in Europe or the US, it IS allowed by the government and the constitution, to change religion and political stand point as you want, basically because these issues are considered as a personal choice.

    Because of these constitutional rights in Europe and US, you should not fear any punishment by any goverment or humans (family, friends, people or other people) , and you should not feel threatened by any human being for converting away from Islam, do you agree about that?



    Best regards
    Mika’’’’
     
  15. Aburafay

    Aburafay New Member

    Tell me, what worries you more. Worldly punishment, which is momentary, or the punishment in the Hereafter, which is eternal?

    The maximum punishment for an apostate in this world is to be killed. The punishment in the Hereafter is Hell, to eternity. In Hell the inhabitants will be the food for the fire, and they will not burn as in this world. They will burn, be brought back to unburnt state, burnt again, then brought back. It will be perpetual. It is stated that onnly the skin will be burnt. A scientist in Germany has recently confirmed that burning of the skin is the most painful.

    Think.
     
  16. mika

    mika New Member

    Hi Aburafay,

    I agree that the kind of punishment that you describe her, with repeatable burning of the skin......does not sound very nice, but on the other hand, are you really sure that an "apostate" will be treated like that?
    I wounder where this is stated?

    As I see the problem, it is this kind of threats, that actually make one strongly considering convert away from Islam.

    Therefore, do readeres in this forum really think that threats of punishment , burnt skin.....are the right way to go?, or should it instead be a personal choise if you want to do in life, including converting away from Islam, or other religions?

    To Abuz Zubair, I am looking forward to your answer on my previous email.

    BR
    Mika
     
  17. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    I thought I had explained myself.

    As I said, Islam does not allow the Muslims to carry out punishments themselves, so yes, in that sense a person has nothing to fear in the West for leaving Islam, and indeed, some do, but the vast majority do not leave after having found Islam.

    Also, this only applies to 'leaving Islam'. As for 'practising Islam' in many Western countries, including the UK, then yes it is difficult. The practising people are not persecuted by the government, but they are haunted by the press and shouted at by the public. Many Muslim women do not feel safe going out shopping in their own local area.
     
  18. mika

    mika New Member

    Dear Abuz Zubair,

    Thank you very much for your answer.

    It is now clear to me and everybody else that a muslim who want to leave Islam, has nothing to fear in the west, that is very nice to hear, and I think tha it is very important to know for all muslim people in the west, that you are free to change religion, if you want.

    In the meantime, it seems to me that muslims that really convert away from Islam are treated very hard by fellow muslims, they are beeing abandonded by the family, their muslim friends cut them off, and they are seen as treators.

    Don't you agree that it is your own personal choise if you want to stay as muslim, or if you want to convert away from Islam, and that friends, family and others should respect your choise withous abandon yor or threaten you?, in the end, this must be a case only between you and Allah :)


    Best regards
    Mika
     
  19. Aburafay

    Aburafay New Member

    Statement of fact considered as threat

    Are you really sure that this will not be the punishment awaiting an apostate? I know it will be, but does that make any difference to you? If it does, we can quote ayahs for you, but if it is going to fall on deaf ears, it is an exercise in futility.

    It is not meant to be a threat. It is the norm. When a person commits an error, mistake, crime, etc. he\she is always warned of the consequences. Did you not face this when you were a small child and disobeyed your parents, refused to do homework? Or, when you grew up and started doing things that were against the law or against the society? Doesn't your god (the western society) have such laws? Doesn't it penalise transgressors? So what is different in your being told that transgression against the dictates of your Creator will earn you Hell, where you will stay for ever, and be subjected to painful punishments?

    As regards your comment about being rejected by family and friends, what else do you expect? Do you want them to throw parties to celebrate your leaving light and going into darkness?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  20. abu khattab

    abu khattab New Member

    Dear Mika:

    Your issue about "free choice", is at question because;

    1- To say that a person has free choice in all aspects of life is incorrect, because, a person who "wishes" to commit corruption in life and cause harm to either himself or fellow humans - would we say, its okay for him to do that because he has freedom of choice? NO.

    2- if you wish to revert away from islam, is this your freedom of choice or can i stop you? YES, i can stop you, HOW and WHY?

    A) stop you because you are going to commit an action by which you will be harming yourself. Obviously, your faith in unseen is not strong, and you do not know the concequencies of your actions, but, we know, as our faith in unseen is stronger (PLS: im not purifying myself, or making myself more pure than you), just like a mother when she tells her son something, the child doesnt understands the logic or reason, but finds out afterwards. Exactly for this reason, you do not know the gravness of this action, so we all wish you stop you by educating you.

    b) from the basic pillars of islam, we ENJOIN GOOD AND FORBID evil, and to commit blamesphamy is the WORSE CORRUPTION a person can commit on the face of earth. So, i can stop you by advising you and not see my FELLOW MUSLIM HARMING HIM/HER SELF and remain silent.

    c) you are obviously unaware of the fruits and bounties of islam which is causing you to think or make you do this action. Why are, 4 billion people muslims? surely if islam had nothing to offer, then why are they still muslims? GO and SEARCH! read about it, from BOOKS not ACTIONS OF PEOPLE!

    d) if you wish to convert into another religion, ask yourself, what it has to offer, IS IT BETTER THAN THE RELIGION I WAS UPON. BUT BETTER IN WHAT?

    1) better in its conviction that it is the true religion, and BY ALLAH, the ONE who has created you mika, name us ONE SINGLE "RELIGION" apart from islam and we will show you its corruption. Example:

    Christianity: A religion named after a prophet (Jesus) called "christians". They worship a "Man" God. The same "man" never asked to be worshiped but they raised him to the status of God!....would you ever consider a man to be your creator?


    A point to consider: Why are people converting to islam from other faiths in large amounts? Okay, maybe some so called "muslims" have also converted but, wallahi, look at the difference:

    All those who converted from other faiths to islam were either,
    1" Preachers, Rabbies, strong worshippers, authors, scientists, doctors etc etc

    All those who converted from islam to other faiths:
    ALL WERE LAYMEN, not A SINGLE FROM:
    1" our scholars, or doctors, or those who have insight in islam have ONCE COVERTED to other faiths. Name us ONE MAJOR figure in islam who converted to other faith, BUT WE HAVE PLENTLY TO GIVE THEM.


    I hope, wallahi, that this made you to think about your action cos we have care for you, so please, ask those who have converted to islam, or visit local mosques and ask them what is bothering you.

    Salama 3aliekum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuhu
     

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