whats all the fuss with having slave girls?

Discussion in 'Global Affairs' started by Abu Hawwa, Mar 30, 2012.

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  1. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    Salamalikum

    After hearing all the rapes that have been done in history even by the most advanced nations and the infamous opinion of the Rabbi's i've come to the conclusion that we Muslim should not try to make excuses anymore regarding slave women and of course there is nothing wrong with it. Now of course there rapings and what not is nothing compared to the institution of slavery in Islam however i do have a question and it is regarding this article I read in islamic-life.com (which i believe a few members here are running the site)

    Muslim Response Does Islam Permit Muslim Men to Rape Their Slave Girls?

    This article says that if either a slave or a free women is raped than they are to be given the hadd, okay, understandable and it is supported but this is for the slave or free women who is not your slave girl or free women. However when going through some of the ahadith regarding the sahaba who wanted to have sex with there slaves they said that this is not considered rape. Okay i agree but my question is, if your slave girl refuses you sex since she is your slave can't the logic be said by some of the people that yes you can? What have our scholars said? Now lets say it is haram (for instance like the case of your wife where the hadith speaking about your wife refusing it is not that you take it by force but rather she is cursed till the morning.) if a man rapes his wife or slave would they receive the same hadd (punishment by death) or something of a lesser degree? Or nothing at all?

    edit: My answer was answered a little bit by this statement of Ashafi

    "If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

    What does it mean by acquire a slave girl by force? Does this mean by jihad or by actually stealing a girl?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  2. Al-Majhool

    Al-Majhool <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Assalaamu 'alaykum Brother

    Technically your question doesn't make sense because 'rape' means extra-marital sex against the will of one of the two participants.

    Thus 'rape' cannot occur between a husband and his wife within a marriage, simply because (1) they are married and (2) the wife does not have the right to refuse sex. She can lawfully refuse sex only if she's menstruating (hayd) or experiencing post-partum bleeding (nifaas) or if she suffers from an illness that would aggravate due to intercourse.

    If the master legally owns a slave-girl then she is permissible for him like a wife is permissible for the husband. So a slave-girl basically takes the same ruling like a wife.

    Wallaahu a'lam.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  3. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    Walikum Salam Wa Rahmatullahi wa barakatu

    so are you saying it is impossible for your wife to refuse to have sex with you and sin? I'm not saying that she can and has the right to do so (unless of course there are reasons for that) anyway i was saying that if you force your wife to have sex with you can you receive the hadd or is it just a major sin without punishment?
     
  4. Father J

    Father J <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Wow!

    The quote from ash-Shaafi'i is talking about someone who basically "bumps" your slave girl and then claims she's his.

    If he did the "bumping" in a way that looks like he acquired her through some semblance of a business transaction, the punishment could be removed from him. But if he just straight up took her by force, then he is a rapist and he has to be treated like a normal rapist.

    However, like the other brother said...your wives and what your right hand possess are yours. If they refuse to have sex and you do so by force, you are a bit of a over-heated man with no game...but you aren't a rapist.

    Rape is having sex with a woman outside of a legal relationship while the woman is refusing.

    Having sex with a woman inside of a legal relationship while she is refusing is just "no game."
     
  5. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    so your saying physically forcing your wife or slave to have sex with you is permitted in the sharia? How about the hadith

    Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘When a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses, and he spends the night angry with her, the angels will curse her until morning comes.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Bid’ al-Khalq, 2998)

    there's no mention of it.
     
    walid likes this.
  6. Al-Majhool

    Al-Majhool <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    Assalaamu 'alaykum,

    Islaam encourages kindness amongst the spouses; the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said: "The best of you is the one who is best to his wife, and I am the best of you to my wives." Narrated by al-Tirmidhee (3895) and Ibn Maajah (1977); classed as Saheeh by al-Albaanee in Saheeh al-Tirmidhee.

    Read the following link for more details: Islam Question and Answer - Affection and compassion between spouses
     
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  7. skeptic695

    skeptic695 New Member

    From an outsiders perspective I'm often absolutely bewildered by the bizarre moral distortions that religion creates, to the extent that taking women as war booty, enslaving them and pinning them down whilst you have intercourse with them against their will is considered a bit over the top but no big deal, yet eating a ham sandwich every Monday is considered a serious moral deficiency. It seems extremely detached from the things that we should really be concerned about, such as let's say human suffering.
     
  8. Abu Yusuf 74

    Abu Yusuf 74 Active Member

    What slaves are you talking about exactly?
     
  9. walid

    walid New Member


    I see what you are saying but you have misunderstood the ruling;

    "If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the PUNISHMENT for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253
     
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  10. AbdulMatin

    AbdulMatin New Member

    in real terms, this issue does not occur today in the manner it did in the past,

    Islam came with rules to deal with the issues people faced at the time, and this was one of those issues - people would bring their families to the battlefield etc. and then there was the question of who was responsible for those left after their husbands etc. had been killed, or similar.

    As for those debating on the internet about such things, you probably will find they are not yet old enough to marry let alone anything else. if they were they would probably spend more time discussing real issues that they confront on a regular basis rather than this type of escapism.

    at the same time, this particular thread was more about discussing the moralistic position others take towards the Islamic viewpoint on such issues, and should be seen in that light.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  11. Muslim1

    Muslim1 New Member

    Al salam alaikum wr wb Muslims
    but where does it say in the Quran or sunnah that u could do that by force?
     
  12. Abu Yusuf 74

    Abu Yusuf 74 Active Member

    I think the poster could have approached the subject with some more hikmah but anyways.

    Once you have abolished slavery you have essentially made people literally worthless, the rise of genocide and the liquidation of millions following the abolishment of slavery is no accident.

    Better that one child is sold then the whole family dies because of famine but that would be immoral wouldn't it.

    Is it more moral for a women to sleep with just one man than the whole town I think so and I could think of a few women that would be more moral as slaves.

    If there is more benefit in something than harm Allah has made it lawful for mankind Alhamdulillah and as for ham sandwiches then that is also lawful once thats all you have left to eat.

    And as for the women in all of this they will be just fine don't you worry yourself about that it will be love but not in the Hollywood sense of it.

     
  13. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    There is something wrong with your premises. You have no moral institution and don't even have a criteria that is constant and you somehow want to say that what we believe is wrong? There is a difference between the two, the first is being discussed as we speak so read and than after pass your judgement's. (no one has said no biggie) and you are making the eating of swine like its nothing. It's like cheating on a test and when your caught you tell your teacher "I just looked over this piece of paper and put the answers on a test whats the big deal" the big deal is you went against the rules. The rules are in degrees so comparing the two things that you did is a deceiving argument. Why didn't you compare what I compared of women being raped in Jails, in armies, as captives? That is okay, to rape a women but somehow it isn't okay to enslave women and children and give them the proper care and rules that you can only find with the Lord of Mercy? You don't find these rules of mercy among the pagans nor do you find it among the western secular people and you definitely don't find it among the distorted law of the Jews and Christians. Anyway what criteria do you even have to dictate what is and isn't evil and good. Only subjectivity, you can keep that. It is amazing that Allah has created this world in such a way that the objective can only come from him and not from the minds of people.



    All ready married akhi. So are you saying that we should allow the false conception that raping your wife is allowed in the sharia? Although this has nothing to do with our times today you never know the Islamic Khilafa may arrive around the corner and the next day I or you may have a slave women. Next thing you know one person forces his slave to have sex with him and it breaks out because shes a loud mouth. What will the Muslims do when it is put on front page? You see this is a bit more probable because people these days are totally against the idea of raping or forcing anyone to have sex with no matter who it may be. Simple question, simple answer. Is it haram to force your slave girl or not? What have the fuqaha and ulema say and so forth and from the first part of my statement we shouldn't be so apologetic because people in multiple armies throughout history rape women and when we Muslims have slave women in our deen than it is all of a sudden a no no. We shouldn't be ashamed and we should use this as an argument.
     
  14. milk

    milk New Member

    you know ive always wanted to know, do muslims get slave girls in jannah?
     
  15. Abu Yusuf 74

    Abu Yusuf 74 Active Member

    @ AbuMatin

    'escapism' just remember not to say that word around your slaves you don't want them getting the wrong idea.
     
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  16. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    we all make blunders every now and than, subhan'Allah those quotes are gems.
     
  17. Abu Hawwa

    Abu Hawwa Formerly 'LionofIslam'

    to call this "escapism" seems to be a label that is thrown because you two believe that some how i want to escape reality. I don't make the same claims against any of you however i will make the point that the two parts of my post was concerning something that I am generally confused about and at the same time we seem to be really apologetic when it comes to slave women this and that. Rather today is friday so i have more time to see the threads and ask questions and read. Plain and simple, if a kaffir comes and asks me "can a Muslim rape his slave, is that his right or what?" (don't be surprised in my time of dawah i've gotten millions of questions like this) than how do you want me to answer? I will be unapologetic however i need to give him an answer no? Until that time i'll be using Allahu Alim. There is beneficial and unbeneficial knowledge, I would understand if I asked "what was the food on the table that was descended upon Isa ibnu Maryam and his companions? was it chicken? rice?" but i didn't ask that so instead of saying "escapism" answer the question thank you and Jazak'Allah khairan. I benefited a lot from the previous thread discussed on muqatila and ghayr muqatilla.
     
  18. abuhannah

    abuhannah Well-Known Member

    Brothers section is there for a reason,it has real purpose,please use it..
     
  19. Abu Fatimah

    Abu Fatimah <A HREF="showthread.php?t=70991"></A>

    uhh, this thread has got to be the worst thing that ever happened to islamic dawah in the UK

    perhaps getting an answer to this issue BEFORE your conversation is broadcst to the whole world is useful

    please use wisdom on these topics, how is this going to sound to a non muslim reading it? I doubt they will rush to take their shahada

    I have never in my whoe life heard from a muslim that you are allowed to force your wife to have sex with you, this is only something I have heard from islamaphobes. Please provide some evidence for this. It is a sin for your wife to not have sex with you but where is the proof you can force her?

    Mods please delete this thread before it ends up on Fox news

    Id propbabily say trying to arge the benefits of slavery is probabily about just as bad as justifying that you can rape your slave so I really would consider what you guys are posting here and the impact it could have. Islam has slowed down its conversion rates now as a direct result of the atheists picking up on these sorts of things and mass broadcasting them. Anything that sounds bad thats in Islam, has been made common knowledge in the non muslim household now, amd is getting heavily entrenched in their minds. When I came to islam i never heard of any of this stuff but I dread to think if i would have still come to islam if this had been drilled into my head before hand

    of course the reality is that my life has improved thousands of times over as a result of following the shariah, married with kids rather than contracting STD's, keeping my body pure from intoxicants, staying away form gambling, interest etc, the benefits are massive, but the emotional impact that issues like slavery, rape etc will over power the logical that islam will improve your life, and if even worse things are added into the mix that are not even actually from the shariah then this will only exhasberate things more. Please understand that these emotional "proofs" where things that sound shocking to western culture are presented to non muslims are probabily the biggest obstacle to teh muslim community, even though logically speaking a set of laws are arbitary and Allah could have told us to kill children (such as ibrahim with ismail" and we still would have to hear and obey, so logically it doesnt matter what the shariah says, but the emotional impact on the average brit if they read this thread would be huge

    if you can prove that these ruling cames from Allah then of course we hear and we obey but no proof that you can rape your wives and slave girls has yet been provided to please provide it ASAP or delete the thread
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  20. Umm DJ-N

    Umm DJ-N Patience

    Agreed.

    To all those who are under the false impression that slavery no longer exists, the modern equivalent of
    slavery is forcing, defrauding or coercing people into labor or sexual exploitation. About 14,500 and 17,500 people – mostly women and children – are trafficked across national borders each year, and experts guess that there are 27
    million slaves worldwide.

    www.dosomething.org/tipsandtools/background-human-trafficking

    So don't put your nose up at people of past times, because it still exists, not as openly but on a large enough scale. We just don't seem to realise what a big issue it is.
     
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