www.inside-ht.com

Discussion in 'Islam in General' started by abuzakarya, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    As-salamu alaykum. Just to let you know, ex-Hizb ut-Tahrir brothers have produced this new website which is having new material added all the time. Insha'allah, it should be a good resource for those interested in finding out objective information about Hizb ut Tahrir (i.e. from people who've actually been in the group).</p>



    www.inside-ht.com</p>
     
  2. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    as-Salaamu 'alaikum brother,
    JK for the link, but don't mind me saying this, I think we are losing focus.
    No doubt HTs have major heresies in Aqida, and I still stand by the articles I wrote over 5 years ago. But, is it the right moment for us to be neglecting areas where our efforts are needed and focusing instead on issues that could be counterproductive to us all in the current atmosphere? </p>

    Bearing in mind that HT has recently come under great scrutiny by the government for its political views (more than its actions), the views we all share irrespective of our background (Ikhwanis, Salafis, Hanafis, etc). Are we to tow the line with the government by attacking HT from within, as it is being attacked from the outside? Or are we to defend them and make sure they survive the political onslaught by the government? </p>

    Moreover, we cannot ignore the fact that HTs have changed a lot since OBM was expelled (or resigned, whichever version you prefer), and have begun to positively contribute to our issues. Shabina Begum is one case where HTs alone championed our cause as Muslims in Britain, whereas other organisations either remained neutral, or some even critical of HT over this issue. </p>

    I personally found it disgusting to read Sara Joseph’s article condemning the High Court verdict in favour of Shabina Begum. Not only because she is only capable of writing utter nonsense, which suggests that she’s better off reverting to Christianity; but also because the moment at which it was written, where HTs and Shabina Begum needed communal support, because her case sets a precedence for us all. </p>

    After 7/7 (and 911), their press release (and IHRC) seemed to portray the most balanced approach amongst all the press releases and comments issues by the apologetics (JIMAS, MCB, etc etc), or the loonies (al-Ghuraba, Muhajiroun, etc). Surely, they deserve the credit for that. </p>

    What became clear after 7/7 is that Islam urgently needs recognition (and not acceptance) as a political alternative to the right and the left, and commendably I see the HTs taking the initiative by lobbying. Although, their efforts are primarily geared towards saving their party, but on the other hand, no doubt it is a great contribution to the Islamists in the West. </p>

    The question is: What have the ‘Salafis’ ever contributed to the society (apart from the endless cycle of Dawah, circles and conferences)? How many schools did they open up (until very recently)? Why can’t the ‘Salafis’ even write a sensible press-release that will not embarrass us all? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to present the political side of Islam to the West? Why have the ‘Salafis’ failed to campaign for any of the issues of concern to Muslims in the UK? And therefore, are the ‘Salafis’ in a position to discredit other groups for whatever contribution they may be making? </p>

    I would reiterate that I am not justifying the errors of HTs, but all I am saying is that there is a time and place for everything and we must focus on our priorities as a community. </p>
     
  3. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    Walaykum salam. The tone and content of your response are an indicator of HT's insidious victory and pending emergence as the voice of Britain's Muslims...and this is exactly why we need this website at this time. Let's not forget that HT's great-grandfathers, the Mu'tazilah, preceded them in this when they eventually ruled the Islamic world and oppressed the ulema as HT would do if we continue to take this contradictory soft approach to them, saying on the one hand their beliefs are from those of the 72 sects in the Fire, and on the other hand, we become their main defenders. There is a 3rd way between collaboration with the kuffar and collaboration with the cult - this is exactly the point which the defenders of HT today are missing. Insha'allah, I will respond to your comments more fully later today.
     
  4. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

  5. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member



    http://www.inside-ht.com/insider_angle/new_mcb.htm</p>
    <p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="left" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><font size="2"></font></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="left" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="center" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><font size="6">IS HTB MUTATING INTO THE MCB?</font></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>HT PAST</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">HIZB UT-TAHRIR (HT) or Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain (HTB) as they are now known in the UK were once known for their stubbornness to the point of stupidity; now they have become the compromise kings of Islamic groups. Ah yes, how I  remember those heady days of the early 1990s when one of the members who recruited me to the Party tested me and my friends on the Islamic evidence which prohibited compromise. We can all remember the time when at one point they were totally against marches, totally against giving politicians platforms in mosques, totally against “unity” conferences, totally against marching with non-Muslims. We also remember their derogatory remarks against the Sunni ulema across the world, labelling them agents of the non-Muslims - people who are “silent” when it comes to the truth.

    But recently, some views have changed. Why?</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>TONY BLAIR'S SPEECH</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">EVER SINCE Tony Blair gave his anti-terrorism speech wherein he mentioned banning Hizb ut-Tahrir, we have seen HT literally do anything to save their own party skin. Gone are the chants of &quot;man-made law&quot; being the cause of all evil as the Party seeks to fight any attempt to ban them through the British courts (http://www.hizb.org.uk/pressnew/index.php?id=2585_0_45_0_M95 accessed 5/3/06). If HT do not recognise the legitimacy of man-made law, why must they seek to legitimise their exist through the vehicle of man-made law?

    We now see HT chairing talks in mosques with politicians. For example, senior Party member Taji Mustapha in Luton with members of the Liberal Democrats and Conservative Parties. ( But wait, didn’t HT say it's wrong to give politicians platforms in mosques?)</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>&quot;DEMOCRACY IS HYPOCRISY&quot;. OH REALLY?</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">Democracy used to be hypocrisy in HT's eyes. Now their official website proudly displays photos of grovelling expeditions to the UK Home Office begging Charles Clarke not to ban them (http://www.hizb.org.uk/ecoverage/index.php?id=2533_0_47_0_M113 accessed 5/3/06). Perhaps most amusing of all is their recent address to the home of modern democracy itself: the two Houses of Parliament. The official HT Britain website shamelessly flaunts its U-turn on their homepage (http://www.hizb.org.uk/ accessed 5/3/06) but what they do not tell us on their website is what Clare Short told journalists: </p><div id="GuardianArticleBody"><p align="justify">&quot;Hizb ut-Tahrir have been approaching parliamentarians to explain who they are and what they believe. Following such a meeting in my constituency, I volunteered to facilitate a meeting at the House of Commons so parliamentarians can decide for themselves whether the organisation should be banned.&quot; (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1720993,00.html accessed 5/3/06)</p></div><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>HT PRESENT</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">Nowadays, in response to the UK government's hostility, we no longer see the HT members hand out leaflets although they used to claim that the caller to Islam should not fear prison. In chapter 3 of the first book new recruits to HT study, Nizam ul Islam, the shabaab are told they must stand for the truth even against the masses. How then do HT explain how HT spokesman Abdul Wahid appeared on British television's Channel 4 and denied having saying that voting was not permissible? It is hardly a hidden fact that HT oppose voting in democratic elections. Those weasel words may fool the kuffar but we Muslims know better. In a similar vein Imran Waheed appeared on Sky News and denied he had any “briefings” on Omar Bakri Mohammed despite the fact that he was the emir of HT in UK at one point !

    We have seen HT being vocal in condemning other Muslims in public rather then advising in private (as they frequently tell us, the Union of Former HT Members and Students (UFHTMS) and their other critics!) in much the same way that we often see Inayat Bunglawala (MCB spokesman) condemning HT and anyone else with whom the kuffar are displeased. We now see HT sharing marches with the Stop the War Coalition when they previously claimed these people had a &quot;different agenda to us Muslims so we cannot march with them.&quot; Whatever happened to &quot;these people have communists and gays within their ranks ”?!</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>THE STENCH OF HIZBIYAH</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">We have also seen how HT is now trying to insidiously spread their neo-Mu'tizilite thoughts by spearheading &quot;unity&quot; events yet they always bring their orange and black placards to give the impression that this is an HT march when it should be a unity event. What about when HT used to say on grounds of “purity of thought” that we should not co-operate with other Muslims? How strange; the very same people they regarded as “indirect” agents of the kuffar, deviants,Wahabis, people who “don’t understand reality”; they now want to campaign for them and want them to help them. What is strange is that despite their calls for unity they still backbite and slander us when the march is finished! </p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>AHL AS-SUNNAH BEWARE!</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">In conclusion, the Muslims must be aware that what has happened to HT is that they have been forced to show their true colours because of the adverse circumstances they are now in in the UK. The loud-mouthed students of the 1980s have matured into slick-suited, well-nourished middle-aged men. Even before Tony Blair's speech we were seeing a change of style but not of substance. Now we see a change of tactics: the survival of the Party has become an end in itself. &quot;The rules of the game are changing.&quot; Anything goes for the sake of the Party. If that means pleading at the gates of the House of Commons, so be it. </p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">What we should be more concerned about is that HT have opportunistically used the recent anti-Islamic climate in the UK to worm their way into the affections of mainstream Muslims. After all, did we not used to bitterly complain about how HT would never co-operate with other Muslims in acts of goodness? Now they appear to be co-operating on the surface but, in reality, they are taking leadership such as in the example cited above of how HT members always carry banners with their Party colours to &quot;unity&quot; marches.</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">Our question is this: since when did the Islamic Aqeedah stop mattering? If you like countless others think, &quot;it was just that they had funny ideas about Punishment of the Grave but they believe in it nowadays,&quot; think again. This was just the tip of the iceberg and believe us (UFHTMS) when we say - in matters of Aqeedah (which are too many to mention here), nothing has changed. Just browse this website and you will see. Since when was it acceptable to denigrate a Sahabi? Since when was it OK to deny the karamaat of the awliyaa'? Since when was it OK to shave the beard? Since when was it OK to shake hands with the opposite sex? Since when was it OK to smoke?</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0"><u>HT FUTURE? HT...HTB...HCB...MCB</u></p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">Whilst unity and cooperation between Muslims is laudable, sectarian groups should never be allowed to be in a position of control/leadership. Did not the Mu'tazilah emerge as a well-known deviant sect who eventually took control of the Khilafah? Co-operation/unity and correction/guidance are not mutually exclusive. Now that we are all happy-clappy-Muslims-in-Britain, we see the voice of those who attempt to point out the errors of groups like HT being silenced. A campaigner for a well-known Islamic website fighting for the release of Muslim prisoners held unjustly in the West said to me, &quot;What's wrong with being in HT? I don't think this is a productive venture. I can sit with members of HT and have a good discussion. I don't talk to him about matters of Aqeedah and he doesn't try to persuade me about them.&quot; Here lies the heart of the problem: mainstream Muslims now look up to HT with admiration because of their well-resourced, well-oiled campaign machine. HT well know this. They are now moderating their views to make themselves acceptable to the majority of Muslims - they are now trying to fill the vacuum left by the failure of the MCB by becoming the voice of Briitain's &quot;moderate Muslims&quot;.</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">THE UNION OF FORMER HIZB UT-TAHRIR MEMBERS AND STUDENTS</p><p style="LEFT: 0px; TOP: 0px" align="justify" startl="170" initleft="769" inittop="469" endleft="0" endtop="0">4th Safar 1427/5th March 2006</p>
     
  6. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    </p>



    walaikum as-sallam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu</p>



    JazaALLAHU Khairan for yoour post akh, Abuz-Zubair.</p>



    The point is that as you categorically stated no doubt there are heresies, but akhi obviously we have to look at things in perspective. Your mentioning the current climate for muslims, akh I can guarantee you 100% that no matter what the climate we are in:</p>



    1-HT are still spreading theri beliefs and probagating them and this in turn is an attack upon the beliefs of the Rasul(saw) and ahl sunnah! So there should be a defence for this.</p>



    2-Have we seen HT change their views or retract any of their activities such as recruiting the youth? No! So why are we to say, in times when of course we need to unify in certain aspects of Islam we should remain quiet about others?</p>



    3-Infact when people are called to the correct belief to this day akhi we are called anthropomorphic (even on this site!), wahabi, devients etc by HT Shabab who have tried to respond to our points, is there no need to even defend the 'aqeedah of Ahl sunnah in this instance? Do you not see how protection of the Hizb is a bigger objective for some these people than to seek the truth of the matter. We never used names for them! Yes we said the beliefs were bordering kufr and blatantly bida'ah yet I for one have never called them Mubtadi' or kafir due to the fact that these shabab are generally muqalidoon and folow whatever is generally told to them. But did that stoop theri shabab from the highest sections of HTB to slander? No! Did it stop them from dismissing the 'aqeedah of ahl sunnah, with their 'mockery' of books like 'aqeedah tahawiyyah, 'aqeedah wasatiyyah? no! (I have seen this myself from the highest of members in HTB!) </p>





    </p>





    since when was islah-correction and invitation to the truth, an attack? (obviously we must use hikma) Akhi with all due respect this 'towing the goverment line' you should retract it. These were the same words used against you for showing some of their mistakes and with all due respect we have highlighted others which will innsha'ALLAH save people from making the misguided step of joining HT and following their beliefs.</p>



    Just as you were called an agent and 'saudi salafi supporter' by the shabab before to dismiss your claim, we are too! For stating the correct pposition of ahl sunnah-without name calling/slander brothers have been called agents of the kuffar, helping kuffar against muslims etc! Subhanullah! Is this the so-called 'unity' that HTB calls for? When before they would mock people for having marches, sharing platforms, petitions, even giving sadaqa to muslims abroad (I was at the talk myself at RPM while In was a shab!), call to build masajids, and islamic schools, and how they were 'not the way for revival' but only when HTB do it, it is? Ajeeb!</p>



    Akh, if you and HTB and others think that this is the work of towing the line of the Goverment then so be it! ]ALLAH Ta'ala guide you and them!</p>



     It should be know that many people from UFHTMS have been contacted by the kuffar media to discuss these 'problems' with HT and alhamdulillah we have all declined. Because we know the difference between supporting and attcking the muslims for the purposes of the kuffar.</p>





    </p>





    Sorry but I agree alhamdulillah there has been changes by HTB....but no apology to all the muslims they insulted even post OBM era. I know because I was a member then and just by dooing one or two things akhi does it change the position of ahl sunnah wa'l jamma'ah that some of their aqaa'id (beliefs) or principles are sahih? Infact they still probagate this! So there is the need for a measured appraoch...one which is not to be in denial...or have the wool pulled over our eyes....</p>



    Even shabana Begums case, why was there a need to mention HTB? We know her brother is a shab, and this obviously is a good time for publicity.</p>



    One should look carefully at the changes of HTB and you will realise many of them occured when Tony Blair made his speech discussing suggesting the poscribing HTB.</p>



     </p>

    </p>



    Credit where credit is due...but where are the 'ulemah and students of knowledge of ahl sunnah? Or are we to say, ok let HTB take the role of leading this ummah? Ajeeb!</p>





     </p>

    </p>



    But you yourself have underpinned the whole motive of these 'wonderfu' actions, we need people who want Islam to prevail before their Hizb! And when I say this it means forget if HTB/HT is even mentioned, defend Islam for the sake ALLAH Ta'ala!</p>



    T</p>

    </p>





    sorry but discrediting people is not in everything but in that which is wrong is what it is all about. The falilures of the salafi movements doen't make HTB correct. Do we replace one mishap with another? Or maybe try to produce something instead?</p>





    </p>



    so when in the communities youth are going to htb and listening 'not only to political talks of htb' but aspects of 'aqeedah and joining them, then there is also a need to warn our communities of this aswell</p>



    wa ALLAHU A'lam</p>



    wasalamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu</p>
     
  7. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    As-sallamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu</p>





    Another point akh Abuz-Zubair. </p>



    Your 'defence' of HTB is actually an exemplary example of why this link of site is needed. Why? Because I'm not saying we can't defend them for the good that they do or the slander against them. But there are many people who don't know much about HTB and think that all about them is good and then end up joining them.</p>



    So yes many good things from HTB but lets keep in mind the bad that the ummah should be warned against.</p>



    This warning will innsha'ALLAH help them to keep a balanced view, to innsha'ALLAH co-operate in the good work together with Hizb ut-Tahrir, and also not to make the mistake of joining them and maintaining the correct relationship with them, innsha'ALLAH as muslim brothers (and sisters)</p>



    wa ALLAHU A'lam</p>
     
  8. asharee_salafi

    asharee_salafi New Member

    Assalaamulekum, </p>



    Dear oh Dear oh me! Brother Abu Zubair!!!</p>



    Please be careful, </p>



    When you once commented about Imran Waheed's appearance on BBC, did you know how the HT's reacted? They reacted as if you were sympathetic towards them and somehow coming on their side! They emailed that link round and round.</p>



    So we should be careful what we say because HT, as you know, are so very oppurtunistic, they will use any kind of compliment as a victory for their party. </p>



    Also brother, I think the www.htexposed.com website was very good, but you missed some issues out,</p>



    Namely their beleifs about Imaan being without action and statement,</p>



    Their allowal to reject seeing Allah on Qiyamah,</p>



    Their allowal to deny the karamat of the awliyya</p>



    Their allowal to deny Allah's attributes such as the Qu'ran being the Kalam of Allah.</p>



    Their allowal of denial of Isa AS return along with Madhi and many other issues.</p>



    Their saying that man CREATES his own actions,</p>



    ETC ETC</p>



    Some brothers thought that you were just writing about ahad narrations, whereby the site you made should of gone deeper then just merely ahad narrations.</p>





    You are right about &quot;salafi&quot; failures, but does this mean that we therefore rely upon HT? No, rather we should, get our OWN act together.</p>



    You also talk of some of the work they are doing ,</p>



    Brother ahl sunnah were doing these acts, like making schools for Muslims etc etc...but everytime we did it they always said &quot;what will that acheive&quot;</p>



    So when we work for the Deen they always say that are deeds and work is pointless, it doesn't adress teh bigger picture, but when they do it, its the best things since sliced bread!</p>



    forgive me I have to cut this reply short</p>
     
  9. asharee_salafi

    asharee_salafi New Member

    Oh by the way, </p>



    I hope you do not take offense, in the above, as I type very fast and sometimes may sound abrasive!</p>



    brother &quot;What the ......&quot; as got a better reply then mine, I just read it.</p>
     
  10. gag order

    gag order Anti-Troll

    there exists common ground between us all (only some of the time regrettably). yet despite our glaring political differences and varied religous affiliations there is the notion that we close ranks and form a united front when the kuffar singles out a group from amongst us that publicises the anguish of the ummah.</p>



    the governments move to silence HT is in turn a slap in the face to the very sentiments that we all share.</p>



    in 1996, HT committed a trecherous act by promoting orientalist and conspiracist propaganda about their fellow muslims the taliban, should we do as they did and join with the kuffar in defaming fellow muslims? surely we are better than that and better than them?</p>



    however when they come up with questionable 'analysis' such as this: </p>

    http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=13044&amp;TagID=1</p>



    they do indeed make it very difficult for other islamists to sympathise with them. and in their desperation to survive they may compromise the security of other muslims in the process in a bid to convince the government of their non-violent, non-militant, and non-radical ideology it wont be long until they start pointing fingers in a manner that is so typical of the MCB.   </p>
     
  11. Expergefactionist

    Expergefactionist hmmm... Staff Member

    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum… </p>

    I think I have been misunderstood. </p>

    I am not suggesting that we should hold our criticisms altogether. All I am saying is that it should not become our obsession that diverts us away from other obligations and responsibilities. We should have a sense of priorities, and unfortunately, it seems HTs have more of that than many of us. </p>

    I am objecting to obsession, like the Khatm-e-Nabuwat’s obsession with the Qadianis, or Sipa-e-Sahaba’s obsession with the Shias, or HT obsession with Khilafa, or Salafi obsession with deviant groups. </p>

    Look at things in perspective means, analysing our current situation, pointing out areas we are lacking in, obligations need fulfilling and then prioritising them. Saving HTs from being banned is more important than being obsessed about refuting them. </p>

    Moreover, there are many other groups, unfortunately, more dangerous albeit theoretically not as deviant as HT, such as Western government scholars like Hamza Yusuf, Tariq Ramadan et al. </p>

    These people are being promoted by the Home Office and they are in many respects worst than HTs, because they want to depoliticise us, whereas at least the HT tries to keep the Muslims politically alive. </p>

    Why do we keep silent with respect to these people? Or even worse, call them to our conferences?! </p>

    All I am trying to draw our attention to is that fact that we are going through a crisis where we all need each other. We must increase the level of understanding and cooperation, and be mature enough to rise above our difference and work on things we agree on. That is not to say that we overlook each other’s faults, rather, we should be critical of each other, but not in a way that will disunite our efforts. </p>

    Allah commands us to be gentle with the Jews and the Christians, and yet HTs are Muslims and are more deserving of gentleness. Yes, sometimes we should be harsh when and where required, but as a principle they are to be dealt with gently. Looking at our anti-HT efforts, we see that the opposite is true, where by default we are harsh, and in odd cases we may become, miraculously gentle. </p>

    As bro gag_order pointed out, we must show a united front when the Kuffar try to single out a Muslim group with chastisement. </p>

    In fact, the understanding of cooperation as ordered in the Quran, dictates that we cooperate with everyone, even the Kuffar, where we have a common objective. For example, if there was ever a civil war in certain Muslim country, where the far right are bent on eliminating all the lefties and liberals along with the Muslim minority, Muslims should unite with the lefties and liberals in order to protect their existence. That is not justifying socialism or liberalism, rather it is being tactful when required, and being mature. </p>

    Up until 5<sup>th</sup> Islamic century, the Hanbalis and Ash’aris were united as one body in their fight against the Mu’tazilas, such that many Ash’aris would call themselves Hanbalis, and the Hanbalis would have immense respect for Ash’aris. Likewise, if situation requires, Hanbalis, Ash’aris and the Mu’tazilas show a united front against the Rafidah, and so on. </p>

    Hence, what I am worried about is our obsession with refuting HTs and forgetting about our priorities. How often I have noticed that brothers, while they are with HTs, they maintain their own diary of ‘contacts’ of potential recruits and report back to their Mushrif on a weekly basis. Yet, as soon as they leave HT, they become inactive, and sometimes, even counterproductive. </p>

    Whereas all they were expected to do is correct their Aqidah. They weren’t asked to become inactive. </p>

    Don’t you think that if the brothers were to make an effort in creating a Salafi organisation like HT, it will be more fruitful? </p>

    All I am saying is: Let’s get our acts together. </p>
     
  12. asharee_salafi

    asharee_salafi New Member

    (Bro how do you , use this quote tingy, its annoying me now!)</p>



    Assalaamulekum,</p>



    Controversial reply.</p>



    But very nice points I must say.</p>

    </p>



     
  13. asharee_salafi

    asharee_salafi New Member

    I just thought I would paste the article that Abu Zakarya gave the link for. </p>

    </p>

    1. Why This Website?</p><p align="justify"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" face="Arial">An-Nu'man ibn Bashir reported that the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, said, &quot;The metaphor of someone who stops at the limits of Allah and someone who transgresses them is that of some people who draw lots on a boat. Some of them get the upper deck and some of them the lower. When those in the lower deck want to get water, they have to pass by those above them. Then they say, 'If we were to make a hole in our deck, we would not have to bother those above us.' If they were to let them do what they wanted, all of them would perish. If they seize hold of their hands and stop them, they will be saved and all of them will be saved.&quot; (Bukhari)</font></p><p align="justify"><font style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" face="Arial">With our unique perspective as ex-members and students of Hizb ut-Tahrir, we can say with confidence that HT is on this Ummah's lower deck. Rumours have been flying about what HT believe in and what they do. Alhamdulillah, those behind this website can talk with credibility about the truth. There is much about HT which is hidden from public scrutiny...in some cases, it is not even known to all of the members. It is our duty to inform the Ummah about what we have learned and to guide our brothers and sisters in HT as well as those inclined towards their call.</font></p><p style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 16px; COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal"><a name="who are you"></a>2. Who Are You And What Are Your Aims?</p><font style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><p align="justify">Allah says (in translation of the meaning), &quot;Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: they will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked. &quot; (24:55)</p><p align="justify">Hence, we are required to correct our Aqeedah and do good deeds of all kinds to succeed in our goal. If you are a Muslim who has come across HT or you are yourself involved with them or even if you just want to discuss Islam and issues of revival, you are welcome. If you have previously studied with HT and want to join our steering committee, we also run a private Yahoogroup called the Union of Former Hizb ut-Tahrir Members and Students. Please e-mail the list owner (UFHTMS-owner@yahoogroups.com) with a short biography confirming you have studied with HT. After this, inshallah, you will added to the Yahoogroup. In the meantime, we hope inshallah you benefit from this website.</p></font><p style="FONT-WEIGHT: 700; COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal"><a name="hate ht"></a>3. Do You Hate HT?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Far from it. We love all them as our brothers and sisters in Islam. If we truly hated them, we would leave them to their own devices and allow them to rush headlong into misguidance.</span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="grudge"></a>4. Have You Got  A Grudge Against HT?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">No. People have been leaving HT for a variety of reasons; some fell into disagreement over their methods and beliefs, some left to form breakaway factions and others to form their groups. Most of us (UFHTMS), however, left HT without any bad feeling on our part. Those of us behind this website are not representing or promoting any particular group other than Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah. It does not befit the way of Sunni Muslims to bear grudges against other Muslims. We hope to tell the truth without embellishment and sensationalism. This is not the place for dealing with personal issues.</span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="unity"></a>5. Aren't You Just Causing Divisions In The Ummah? What About Unity?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">One might very well pose the same question to HT. We at Inside-HT did not set up a party with its own leader, its own beliefs and agenda. We are not the ones recruiting young Muslims to join us to further our cause. We as an Ummah must face a few facts. The divisions are already there! Each new sect, which emerges with its own bizarre beliefs and leadership and then calls people to join them, widens the huge cracks in the ranks of the Muslims. If the mainstream of Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah keep silent, these sects will draw our youth towards them like the Pied Piper of Hamlet. One thing people don't know about HT is that they are heavily divided internally. There are actually 2 groups now going by yht name  &quot;Hizb ut-Tahrir&quot; and each despises the other. Around the world, there have been many splits and even within mainstream HT, there are many personal problems between members. If they cannot be united in their own ranks, it is somewhat hypocritical to attack anyone else by claiming they are obstructing unity; moreover, what hope have they of uniting the Ummah? We, at Inside HT, uphold the call for unity amongst all Muslims in the face of a savage onslaught against Islam. However, unity does not preclude self-correction and sincere advice to those who are in error. Indeed, is it true unity when we stop helping each other in the most important matter of all i.e. reaching a good resting place in the Aakhirah? </span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="kuffar"></a>6. Why Don't You Attack The Kuffar Instead Of Muslims?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Firstly, we are not &quot;attacking&quot; HT. We commend them for their good qualities and achievements. However, they are in grave error in some very important matters in this Deen. All that we are doing is advising them in the best possible manner and in a way that suits the mentality of one who has become attracted to the call of HT. We don't want to destroy HT; if they corrected their mistakes, we would join hands with them and call others to do so. As for the kuffar, our work with HT and our da'wah to the kuffar are not mutually exclusive. Inviting the kuffar to Islam should not prevent us from purifying our own souls and advising our brothers and sisters. Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, &quot;</span><font style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">None of you is truly a believer until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.</font><font style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">&quot; (Bukhari and Muslim) How can we be good Muslims if we don't wish Jannah upon our brothers and sisters in HT? This necessitates advising them with sincerity about their most serious errors.</font></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="public"></a>7. Aren't You Just Pleasing The Kuffar By Washing Our Dirty Laundry In Public?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">This website is for Muslims only. Of course we recognise that kuffar would also visit us. This is not a problem from many perspectives. Most of the kuffar are repulsed by HT and their da'wah - this is a fact, like it or not. As a result, they use HT as a pretext for attacking Islam. We have the opportunity here to show that HT's version of Islam is not mainstream. You will also notice that we have links to authentic information about Islam. They will also notice that our differences with HT are mostly theological and that we would never betray them or any Muslims for any materialistic reason. We Muslims also need to face the fact that we DO have dirty laundry and it needs washing! It is HT who went public with their call with all its misguidance. A public method of advising them and others hearing about them is, therefore, a necessity. </span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="private"></a>8. Why Don't You Advise HT in Private?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Remember that HT's call is a public one and when we talk about them here, we are not just advising them, we are warning others about them. We would like to advise individual members of HT in private where possible but the Party itself is in the public domain in terms of its ideas/beliefs and there are many beliefs which are deliberately kept out of public scrutiny by HT that we know of due to having been insiders.</span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="khilafah"></a>9. Don't You Want Khilafah?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">HT have hijacked the issue of Khilafah but they are not the only ones calling and working for Khilafah. Indeed, they are no longer the main group associated with the issue of Khilafah nowadays. Being opposed to HT's mistakes does not necessitate opposition to Khilafah. This is a rather childish accusation commonly made by young members of HT against anyone who criticises them. It is probably fair to say that there is not a Muslim on the planet who wouldn't wish for the return of a Khilafah...unless they are not in their right mind or they have some vested interest in oppression.</span></p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><a name="saudi"></a>10. Are You Agents Of The Saudi Arabian Government?</p><p style="COLOR: black; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-VARIANT: normal" align="justify"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Speaking of childish accusations...! We do not represent any government or group and we advise anyone who likes to throw accusations around that you should fear Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Bring your proof or remain silent.</span></p>



    <font color="#000099">http://www.inside-ht.com/why.htm</font></p>
     
  14. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    [​IMG]</p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">As-salamu alaykum. Jazakallah khayr for your insightful comments and thoughtful advice, Abuz Zubair. Alhamdulillah, much of what I wanted to say has been ably said already by the brothers who responded to your post. I would like to take the opportunity to address a few issues myself insha'allah.</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"></font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">I'm going to try out this quote thing so I hope it works better for me than Asharee_Salafi! OK, I give up already!!</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;JK for the link, but don't mind me saying this, I think we are losing focus.&quot;</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">What exactly is this &quot;focus&quot;? Sorry if I seem a little simple but we Muslims used to be focussed on the akhirah. Now we've sold out to the &quot;secular Islamists&quot; in the UK. We all know them: Cageprisoners, Islamchannel, SPT. People (such as yourself, in fact) have sidelined the true salafis or the super salafis have sidelined themselves and the students of knowledge sit in silence as the sky is crumbling down around them. I put it to you that the focus you are talking about is one of purely worldly benefit for UK Muslims i.e. survival of Islam and Muslims in the heartland of kufr by hook or by crook - and has anyone ever considered: what is this Islam that will be left at the end of this venture with HT, the Shi'a, the kuffar, etc?</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;No doubt HTs have major heresies in Aqida, and I still stand by the articles I wrote over 5 years ago.&quot; </font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Did you really say that? Are you seriously suggesting that &quot;major heresies&quot; are a secondary issue? Moreover, by standing by the articles you wrote 5 years ago, you are contradicting the whole of your subsequent argument. Why don't you make a gesture of &quot;unity&quot; towards HT and take down the whole HTexposed.com website? Please don't be offended by this but that website probably did as much harm as good in the fight against HT's deviance. At least Inside-HT.com does not have a confrontational policy. Indeed, we have more right to speak about the HT cult since we (the inside-ht staff i.e. UFHTMS) were actually insiders. You see the smart suits of HT but we've seen the dirty underwear (metaphorically speaking)!!! So why don't you stand by your new conviction and close HTexposed?</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;is it the right moment for us to be neglecting areas where our efforts are needed &quot;</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This is a regrettable assumption on your part. This is not the place for me publicise the efforts of UFHTMS in supporting HHUGS, Cageprisoners, Babar, etc. Besides, who said these efforts should be mutually exclusive? I might very well ask, what are our campaigning Islamist activist brothers and sisters doing to correct HT and the Shi'a, etc. with whom they have joined hands?</font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;Are we to tow the line with the government by attacking HT from within, as it is being attacked from the outside? Or are we to defend them and make sure they survive the political onslaught by the government?&quot; </font></p>

    <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I'm sorry but I am no longer &quot;within&quot; HT; are you? Has this simple man (me!) left the cult only for my esteemed and knowledgeable brother to have leapt towards them, if only mentally?! As one UFHTMS brother reminded me, inside-ht.com is not a reaction to the government agenda; it is the culmination of 4 years work which actually started right here on this discussion board. What the kafir government does is their business, not ours. Who dancing to the government's tune by abandoning the championing of tawheed - I don't mean you but rather the jahil or misguided campaigners who think they're leading the fightback of UK Muslims. But I want to ask you: please explain the need for HT among UK Muslims? This does not necessitate cooperating with the UK government. Our agenda, as I said, is independent of the government. It wasn't that long ago you were among those spearheading the call for Muslims to vote in the UK elections. So does that mean you were &quot;towing the government agenda&quot;?</font></p>

    &quot;we cannot ignore the fact that HTs have changed a lot since OBM was expelled (or resigned, whichever version you prefer)&quot;</p>

    This is very interesting. I do think you have a personal issue with OBM. I say this as someone who has little time for OBM. It puzzles me why you don't accept his change and give him credit for the positive changes he made in issues of Aqeedah, etc. yet you are so impressed with the skin-deep change of style of HT. How exactly have HT changed in any tangible and substantial way? Let's not forget that since OBM left, HT have split several times and when you choose to defend them anytime, you should clarify which HT you are referring to since there are more than one carrying the Party name.</p>

    &quot;Shabina Begum is one case where HTs alone championed our cause as Muslims in Britain, whereas other organisations either remained neutral, or some even critical of HT over this issue&quot;</p>

    First of all, if you read the &quot;Why&quot; page on inside-ht.com, you'll see that we are not HT's enemies. Nor do we deny that they have positive qualities as do all Muslims. However, with respect to the Shabana case, her association with HT diminished the significance of that case - it didn't help her as you seem to suggest. In fact, I'm sure noone needs reminding that it was the Muslim parents in her school who tried to make her remove her jilbab. This is the condition of the Muslims of the UK so what is the Islam you are talking about fighting for in the UK?</p>

    &quot;After 7/7 (and 911), their press release (and IHRC) seemed to portray the most balanced approach amongst all the press releases and comments issues by the apologetics (JIMAS, MCB, etc etc), or the loonies (al-Ghuraba, Muhajiroun, etc). Surely, they deserve the credit for that. &quot;</p>

    And your point is...? Firstly, I disagree with the point you make on the quality of HT's statement but that is a matter of opinion. But it is interesting that you speak about Muslims in derogatory terms but you have praised Ahl ul-Bid'ah and the kuffar in the statement you wrote after 7/7. Are you really closer to HT? Al-Ghuraba are misguided but for you to call them loonies whilst praising HT is on-its-head. Is this our condition? What an indictment of the UK Muslims today!</p>

    &quot;What became clear after 7/7 is that Islam urgently needs recognition (and not acceptance) as a political alternative to the right and the left, and commendably I see the HTs taking the initiative by lobbying. &quot;</p>

    Here lies the heart of the problem. Subhanallah, this is precisely the talk which will cause Islam to vanish from the UK. Who said we should be lobbying? What exactly do you mean &quot;a political alternative&quot; in the UK? This necessitates participation of the Muslims in the UK political system and, as I'm sure you know better than anyone, amongst others, Sheikh Muqbil ibn Haadi al-Waadi'ee stated that democracy is shirk and anyone who understands democracy and calls for it is a kafir. How can you square your statement about lobbying with this undeniable truth? Lobbying necessitates an acceptance and integration within the prevailing system as has happened to the sellout Muslims of America and the Jews of the US and UK. More importantly, anyone who knows anything about HT would know that they ideologically oppose this type of participation in the system...so your &quot;allies&quot; have already stabbed you in the back!</p>

    &quot;What have the ‘Salafis’ ever contributed to the society (apart from the endless cycle of Dawah, circles and conferences)?&quot; </p>

    This is not actually relevant to the discussion at hand. If you think the salafis have problems, go and advise them (set up inside-salafiyah.com if you like!) by all means but this is no excuse to defend HT. Anyway, I'm sorry that you choose to belittle these efforts of the salafis. I'm sure you don't need reminding that virtually all UK coverts came to Islam at their hands - the HT cult has only driven Muslims and kuffar away from Islam. </p>

    &quot;I would reiterate that I am not justifying the errors of HTs, but all I am saying is that there is a time and place for everything and we must focus on our priorities as a community.&quot;</p>

    Well, you say this but that is precisely what you are doing. And I put it to you that the priority of Muslims in the UK is not what you suggest. If the survival of Islam and Muslim in the UK necessitates cooperation with Ahl al-Bid'ah and the kuffar, defending them and maligning Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah, there is a new priority which is compulsory for us: HIJRAH to the lands of the Muslims.</p>
     
  15. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    I forgot to add that the deviant sects such as the mu'tazilah, the Ash'aris, rtc. emerged as defenders of the deen against foreign philosophies. The mu'tazilah became rulers and the Asha'irah are now the majority. Even Miza Ghulam Ahmad emerged as a defender of Islam against the Christian Missionaries from Britain. As Abu Imaan an-Nepaalee said in his post, the scholars and students of knowledge need to wake and prevent HT taking leadership for that is there explicitly stated aim. Already Newsnight and Channel 4 in the UK have started inviting HT members as Islam's spokesmen. Is this really progress over Inayat Bunglawala? HT is going mainstream like it or not.
     
  16. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    abu imaan an-nepalee

    thats me....(just incase someone is wondering who abuzakaray was refering to).;)
     
  17. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Here are my comments on Abuz Zubair's second post:</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;I am not suggesting that we should hold our criticisms altogether.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">No but who is criticising HT in the UK nowadays - all we see since the government's threats is a wall of protection led by the likes of Sheikh Haytham who is now seen by the Hizbis as approving of them due to his appearance in their events. I see the cooperation but where is this criticism?</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;it should not become our obsession that diverts us away from other obligations and responsibilities.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Nobody said it should become an obsession. HOwever, I'd like to know which obligations you are referring to and who has been diverted from them.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;We should have a sense of priorities, and unfortunately, it seems HTs have more of that than many of us.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Again, I see praise but little criticism. What is your perception of HT's sense of priorities which you think we should adopt?</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;I am objecting to obsession, like the Khatm-e-Nabuwat’s obsession with the Qadianis, or Sipa-e-Sahaba’s obsession with the Shias, or HT obsession with Khilafa, or Salafi obsession with deviant groups.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Putting aside our agreement that obsession in general is not a good thing, I profoundly disagree with this statement which is short-sighted and an inaccurate reflection of these organisations' work as well as a recipe for disaster for the Ummah in terms of effective da'wah. The first priority for us all an individuals is to correct ourselves in terms of tawheed and aqeedah and this is an ongoing process, and here, HT falls at the first hurdle. But the Ummah needs specialists in various fields to focus on certian issues where they have expertise. Not everyone skills and talents are the same. For anyone to suggest that we should all focus on campaigning in the UK is ridiculous. Would you criticise Imam al-Albaani for being &quot;obsessed&quot; with hadith or surgeons for being obsessed with cardiac surgery? This is not a well-thought out criticism. It is a partisan call saying &quot;my da'wah and priorities are more important and relevant than yours.&quot; Sorry, that sounds harsher than what I mean - it's not personally directed to Abuz Zubair.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;Look at things in perspective means, analysing our current situation, pointing out areas we are lacking in, obligations need fulfilling and then prioritising them. Saving HTs from being banned is more important than being obsessed about refuting them.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> &quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">I don't agree with this UK-centric view of things. It's a big world. Who said &quot;saving&quot; HT is important (as if you could do actually do that)? The same people who told us to vote for Sadiq Khan and Shahid Malik? By saving HT, you will need to lobby the government, become absorbed in their political process - if you are successful, you will be seen to be endorsing a cult practising bid'ah - a fine example from the people of ilm to the Muslims of the UK. Secondly, the Muslims will love and respect the kuffar and their political system (which they already do to some extent) which will jeopardise the very goal HT and its allies claim to be working for. Isn't the inherent contradiction in this stance clear to anyone who looks at it?</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;more dangerous albeit theoretically not as deviant as HT, such as Western government scholars like Hamza Yusuf, Tariq Ramadan et al. These people are being promoted by the Home Office and they are in many respects worst than HTs, because they want to depoliticise us, whereas at least the HT tries to keep the Muslims politically alive. Why do we keep silent with respect to these people? Or even worse, call them to our conferences?!&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">I object to these two individuals being called &quot;scholars&quot;. I also find no evidence that the Home Office is promoting them. Yes, the media promotes them for obvious reasons but you might also like to ask, why are HT now regulars on Newsnight, Channel 4 News, etc? Your general statement that &quot;depoliticisation&quot; is worse than &quot;deviancy&quot; is baseless. And I, too, ask, why are the students of knowledge and scholars of the UK silent over these two and their like? You can go and ask JIMAS and the scholars who speak at their conferences why they endorse these individuals (as if we don't know the answer - it is the very &quot;unity&quot; agenda you are promoting). Why does it take Sheikh Salim Al-Amry to come all the way from the UAE to speak out about the mistakes of Tariq Ramadan? The funny thing is this though: you are contradiciting the &quot;prioritisation&quot; agenda for UK Muslims you want us to adopt by criticisng these people? Why do you want to hold hands with HT and not Tariq Ramadan or Hamza Yusuf?</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;All I am trying to draw our attention to is that fact that we are going through a crisis where we all need each other. We must increase the level of understanding and cooperation, and be mature enough to rise above our difference and work on things we agree on. That is not to say that we overlook each other’s faults, rather, we should be critical of each other, but not in a way that will disunite our efforts.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The situation we now face is a direct result of our existence amongst the kuffar at a time when hijrah is warranted. We are not facing a crisis - this is the norm. Up until now, we've been in an abnormal situation of relative tolerance for Islam but that is over. Kuffar hate Muslims. Whoaah - big revelation! Our efforts are misdirected and incoherent in the first place in the UK. Who is out there talking about returning to Islam? Who is calling for Hijrah and calling upon the Ummah to ease our passage to their lands? Instead all we hear is compromise, compromise, compromise.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;Looking at our anti-HT efforts, we see that the opposite is true&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Inside-HT.com is not &quot;anti-HT actually - you only need to read the &quot;why&quot; page on the website to realise this. You are the one who set up &quot;HT Exposed&quot;!</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;For example, if there was ever a civil war in certain Muslim country, where the far right are bent on eliminating all the lefties and liberals along with the Muslim minority, Muslims should unite with the lefties and liberals in order to protect their existence. That is not justifying socialism or liberalism, rather it is being tactful when required, and being mature.&quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">This statement is contradictory - how can Muslims be a minority in a Muslim country? Maybe that was a typo but, I agree, this is true for a country of Muslims but the trouble is that UK Muslims are exporting this hypothetical model to the UK. Don't you see the dangers in this approach? Our brother, the student of knowledge, Abdullah McPhee wrote recently that America is a melting pot and we see how the born Muslims as well as the converts have melted their identities into the pot and their children are worse and what will their children be like? This is more applicable to the UK. Islam has been virtually extinguished on this island - the only saviour now is a call to hijrah. If you, a student of knowledge, want me to be silent over a cult which rivals the Christian Branch Davidians in an Islamic context, may Allah ta'ala save me from the Muslims of Britain!</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;How often I have noticed that brothers, while they are with HTs, they maintain their own diary of ‘contacts’ of potential recruits and report back to their Mushrif on a weekly basis. Yet, as soon as they leave HT, they become inactive, and sometimes, even counterproductive</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">.&quot; </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Really, I'm surprised that maintaining a &quot;diary of contacts&quot; is to be considered productive activism. If leaving the Party causes the active to become inactive then their activities must have been for the sake of partisanshio not for Allah's sake and this is rejected and it is of no benefit to the individual or the Ummah. Equally, how many were active before they joined the cult and then thought themselves to be &quot;saved&quot; and stopped being active in a productive manner when they joined HT? Let's be a little balanced here. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">&quot;Don’t you think that if the brothers were to make an effort in creating a Salafi organisation like HT, it will be more fruitful? &quot;</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></span></font></p>

    <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 5pt 0cm; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">How can you have a &quot;Salafi&quot; partisan entity? This is a contradiction in terms. Do we need another division in this Ummah? Why is it not enough to be of Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah? Do you really want to start up a cult around a mythical leader who you venerate even when he makes statements of kufr and bid'ah? You have no idea of the internal friction and divisions within HT so what hope of them uniting the Ummah? These petty rivalries and divisions are an inherent part of groups and cults the world over. At one point I was counting the number of HT splits and I counted 7 different groups emerging from HT's breakups and rivalries. Finally, what I want to say is that if HT is sincere, why don't they just carry on with their da'wah even without their Party being legal? Let the government ban them. They can continue their call without being in the group but all they want, as you yourself have pointed out, is to save their skin. Once again, I thank Abuz Zubair, who has stimulated this interesting discussion with his intelligent views even if I don't agree with all of them.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></span>

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  18. gag order

    gag order Anti-Troll

    the thought of HT becoming the voice of UK muslims is understandably troubling (to some), but despite their faults they should be preferred over the MCB. HT came about independently whilst the MCB came about through kafir intervention.</p>

    we have seen from the divisions amongst them and their adapting to meet the challenge of their predicament that they are ready to accept change and/or to make compromises that bieng the case are they then not ready to take advice in their aqeeda? </p>

    an excellent resource like <font color="#000099">www.inside-ht.com</font> is better used as a means to correct them from within rather than as a means to dismantle them. either you attempt to crown their 'achievements' with the aqeeda that is correct or just abandon them as hopelessly lost in aqeeda. </p>

    you mentioned that HT had split into several factions, what are these factions called? or do they all claim to be the 'real' HT? and how do they differ from one another?</p>
     
  19. abuzakarya

    abuzakarya New Member

    Actually I don't think this is true that the MCB came about through kafir intervention pathetic as they are. There have also been rumours about HT having been set up by the kuffar's secret services to destroy Islam from within - this is equally doubtful. </p>



    Of the HT factions, 2 that I know of both claim to be the real HT. Other splits ended up in new groups and include the &quot;Commmittee for the Reformation of HT&quot;, Al-Muhajiroun in the UK was started when OBM left HT and a third to a half of UK memberrs went with him (my guesstimate), there is a group that split away in Falasteen plus Muhammad al-Massari left HT to set up his CDLR. These are the ones which spring to my mind right now.</p>
     
  20. Abu'l 'Eyse

    Abu'l 'Eyse Rep-manz

    F.A.O. Abuz Zubair

    As-sallamu 'alaikum akhee

    just thought I would share with you and others a response from a disgruntled Hizbie called Abu Rashid about www.inside-ht.com


    he doesn't even retract these statements and states this is the reality of every wahabi/salafi site.

    when I asked him who from the inside-ht site he refers to he doesn't respond....

    pathetic!

    (last time I called a hizbie pathetic on this forum I got an email from a high ranking hizbie who said I shouldn't have said that! I wonder if he emailed his brother the amir of htb and said they ned to find the hizbie I was refering to and tell him not to post messages on forums accussing people of being saudi agents payed by the government to have differences with HT...)
     

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